Rerelease | True Confidence for Leaders: The Strange Truth About Humility | #8

So welcome to Unleash youh Impact.

Unlock Others.

This is episode nine of Leadership Unscripted, and we're going to talk to you today about the topic of true confidence and how that sits with humility.

So, Rich, welcome to the podcast again.

Thank you.

When you did your Master's in coaching, your dissertation, I believe, was in self esteem and confidence within coaching.

Yeah.

So you have a degree of expertise and knowledge that we really want to tap into today.

Yes.

Yeah.

The dissertation I did was driven by, if you like, my own personal journey around confidence and self esteem and how that developed in me personally.

And I was really interested in how coaches could work to unlock or to work with the inhibitors around developing true confidence in the context of coaching in the workplace.

I think the issue of true confidence and how we can get true confidence is a real issue for leaders in organisations.

In my experience, a lot of people come to me for coaching around the subject of confidence and that's why they come to me.

And it seems to be one of the big ticket issues in the context of leadership.

Sometimes it's related to the thing that people call imposter syndrome, but in my experience, it's a major issue and real inhibitor for people.

What sort of things are they struggling with then?

What leads them to come and pick that as a topic they want to explore with you?

Well, if you think about the way confidence is played out, if you lack confidence in the context, say of being with a senior person or being in an important meeting, if you feel like, or you feel like you lack lack of confidence.

Yeah.

It means you're probably not going to perform at your best.

Say what you need to and have the impact that you need to create.

So sometimes it's about finding your voice when you need to.

Yes.

Okay.

So today in the podcast, I think what we should start with is probably defining what we mean by true confidence, that would be a good thing.

We then want to lead on to how that fits with the role of humility in leadership, because I think there is a.

There is a relationship between true confidence and humility, and I think it'd be worth discussing that today.

So I would go as far to say that humility is.

Is the foundational aspect of true confidence.

One of the interesting books I read a few years ago, which had a profound effect on me, is Good to Great by Jim Collins.

I don't know if you've read that book.

I've read snippets of it.

Okay, well, in that book, one of the things he says is that how do you distinguish a good leader to a great leader.

There's two things that he says set a great leader apart.

One is a strong professional will to do the right thing.

Right, yeah.

And the other is humility.

Okay, interesting.

So actually this is a really, really important top for somebody who aspires to be a great leader.

It is, yeah.

So we'll reference some of the learnings from that book a bit later on.

And I think the other thing I would say is humility is often a fundamentally misunderstood concept.

Okay.

So understanding what true humility is, it's really important in understanding what Jim Collins was getting at in his book.

He's onto something that is fundamental in good leadership.

Yeah, I agree.

And it'd be also good for us to talk today about how do you know whether you have true confidence?

How do you know whether you're humble?

Well, are you truly confident and humble all the time?

No.

Is that possible?

Not all the time, no.

Because we're all flawed as human beings.

But I think we can do a great deal in terms of our self development and self improvement to grow in this area.

So it's a little bit like emotional intelligence.

We can know what emotional intelligence is.

We can act in an emotionally intelligent way some of the time.

But can we do it all the time?

Probably not.

This is something you aspire to.

You won't always be it, but you can actually make sure that when you need to, you can demonstrate the confidence and humility that you need to lead.

Well, and when we talk about self esteem and confidence and humility and all those things, it's very easy to understand the concept and the theory.

But like emotional intelligence, just because you understand the concept and the theory doesn't make you emotionally intelligent.

Or if you understand the concept of humility, it doesn't make you humble.

Absolutely.

So let's dive into some of your knowledge that you gained when you did that.

Masters, can you help me understand what does true confidence mean?

Okay, so I would say true confidence is not the absence of fear.

So you're embracing any fear, any doubts, any insecurities and any vulnerabilities.

Yes.

Often in coaching, when I ask somebody, when we're talking about confidence, what do you think a confident person is like on the inside?

People will say things like, you know, I won't be frightened to going into this meeting or scared of meeting senior people, that sort of thing, they probably don't express it in quite those extreme terms.

But in essence, I think sometimes people think that true confidence is being super serene and not being affected at all by the externals and your environment and the truth in your environment.

I would say that's probably almost impossible to be in that stage.

Exactly.

And there's a very famous book, self help book, released quite a number of years ago, and Andy Flack referenced it in his podcast a couple of sessions ago called Feel the fear but do it anyway.

Yeah.

So true confidence is creating a healthy relationship with fear and understanding what those fears are telling you and parking the fears that are inhibiting you.

So that's, that's the first thing I would say in terms of understanding what true conf.

But the other really important thing, if I'm talking to somebody about what true confidence is, I think true confidence is rooted in humility.

Okay.

And I think that's the bit that's worth exploring first.

And this adage that fake it till you make it.

You hear that said a lot.

I'll fake it till I make it.

Yeah, yeah.

When we're talking about confidence, is that actually a real thing?

Well, it's quite interesting.

So as human beings, we are wired to over evaluate our strengths and our abilities.

Okay.

If I was to ask you, why do you think that is important in the human condition?

To overvalue our strengths, do you mean?

Yeah.

So why do we do that as human beings?

Why is that important?

There's a number of things, isn't there?

I mean, you don't want to be pessimistic all the time.

You don't want to be.

You need to be optimistic about the future.

People like to think that they are capable of doing stuff and achieving stuff.

Yes.

So I think that's really important for people.

So what do they do?

If people think they're capable of doing stuff, what are they prepared to do?

They're prepared to take risks.

Yeah.

Some more than others, some more than others.

And we're wired in different ways for this.

So the fact that we overestimate our abilities on occasions is in some ways not a bad thing.

Otherwise we just stay indoors and do nothing.

Yeah.

We'd be paralyzed by the risks.

Yeah, we'd be paralysed by the risks.

So, you know, the reason human beings have been so successful as a species on this planet is our ability to sort of push ourselves out there, take risks, push the boundaries.

And obviously there are examples of where people have so fundamentally overestimated their abilities and their strengths that they've done things that you regard as stupid.

Yeah.

And I guess this feeds into the conversation we had in a previous podcast about self awareness.

We've talked quite a lot in previous podcasts about self awareness.

Can you be truly confident if you lack self awareness?

My instinct is you can't.

No.

And that self awareness is rooted in humility.

Yeah.

So if I unpack what I mean by humility and why, why it's so important in the context of developing true confidence.

I think when I explain this to people in the context of coaching, you can almost see like the light bulb coming on.

Okay.

And it becoming a self validating, freeing concept.

Okay.

So have you heard of Aristotle the first?

So Aristotle had this concept of what he called the golden mean.

And Aristotle was big on human virtues.

He liked to define human virtues using this concept of the golden mean.

Tell me more.

If you imagine a straight line going from left to right, and on the left and on the right you have two extremes of human behavior, human attitudes, etc, etc, or human mindset.

So in the middle you have, you have this sweet spot.

And that sweet spot, when we're talking about the virtue of humility, obviously is humility in the middle at the two extremes.

To understand what we mean by humility and what that sweet spot is, imagine the left hand side of this straight line and we talk about somebody who is the very diffident.

So that is a person who often underestimates their ability, their strengths and they.

Will never find their voice.

Yeah, they'll be a bit of a passenger in life.

Yes.

So in other words, the way that shows itself is they will continually put themselves down, often internally.

So you might not see that.

No.

But in terms of their self worth, they would regard their, if you like, their worth in the context of the people that they're interacting with as less than the people they're engaging with, which.

Is where things like imposter syndrome come from, isn't it?

Yes.

So somebody who is diffident underestimates their strengths and their weaknesses, is actually, if you think about it, fundamentally dishonest.

I guess so, yeah.

Yeah.

You know, because what you're doing with that, with that mindset is actually not valuing the strengths and the abilities and the talents that you have underplaying those.

And that's going to be a huge inhibitor to the way you perform and behave.

So interestingly then, part of this true confidence is actually being able to be honest with yourself.

It's about being honest with yourself.

And Often I think people think humility is diffidence.

Yeah, no, I think you're right.

I think that does get confused for that sometimes.

It gets confused.

So humility is not about putting yourself down, and it's not about expressing and valuing your strengths.

So people who are diffident underplay those.

That's not humility.

No.

So that's diffidence.

That's one end of this line.

Yeah.

Okay, so that's left unknown.

So let's go to the right.

Okay, so we have diffidence.

We have in the middle, humility.

And on the right hand side, essentially what we have over here is another extreme of the human conditions.

Overconfidence, arrogance, maybe arrogance, bravado.

So in other words, these are the sort of people that hugely overestimate their talents, strengths, and abilities.

But do you think sometimes they do that because they're insecure inside?

Yeah.

And both diffident people and arrogant people are fundamentally insecure.

That's interesting, because I was reflecting when I was thinking about this podcast and what we were going to talk about, about my journey through life now, many years ago, I would say, where I lacked some self awareness and I was probably more insecure about who I was as a person, I would not have described myself as having humility.

And I think that lack of humility was rooted in a lack of self awareness and a bit of insecurity.

Yeah, yeah.

Because if you think about diffidence and overconfidence, actually, in terms of human beings, they're not attractive qualities in people.

You know, when we come across who are constantly doing the hand wringing and putting themselves down, when you can see actually they have the strength and the abilities that they claim they don't, it's not attractive.

So how do we know when we found this golden mean, this point that you're talking about, where we actually are that person?

Well, let's come to that a little bit later, because what I want to do now is to.

Is to take those two extremes and to explore what we mean by the golden mean.

Okay, let's do that.

So the golden mean is humility.

So humility is not diffidence doing ourselves down.

It's not arrogance, so it's not insecurity.

Master's confidence.

Confidence.

I think in the context of leadership, often people see, you know, the alpha type of behaviors.

They see that as confidence.

Yeah.

And to be fair, it's almost been celebrated over the last 20, 30 years for people who actually demonstrate that type of behavior.

Yeah, yeah.

So that can get you quite a long way in the context of business.

But often what happens with people that are overconfident and arrogant and they're masking their insecurities when they're challenged or they receive feedback that they don't like, often they become very defensive, and then their behaviors become very toxic in the context of organizations.

Right, okay, okay.

And, you know, you see this a lot.

I don't want to get too sort of political around this, but you see, in my view, behaviors with people like Trump, I would see him as a person who's arrogant, has bravado, but it's probably, you know, I can't psychoanalyze the guy, but it's probably masking deep insecurities.

And you can see that around his behaviors, you know, when he sacks people, you know, willy nilly and all that stuff.

To be fair, I've heard people who know him a lot better than we do.

We don't know him at all, but have said exactly the same thing.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah.

And there's lots and lots of people like that, not just in the political public space, but you meet people like that in everyday life, don't you?

Yes.

Yeah.

So true humility is when our view of self and our view of our strengths and our weaknesses.

And I'm purposely using the word weakness because sometimes there's a little bit of reticence about using that term.

And I'll come to why I think that's important to use the term weakness.

So it's when people have a view of their strengths and their weaknesses that are aligned with their true strengths and weaknesses and what other people see.

So in other words, usually somebody who has humility, their view of self is aligned to what other people see.

It's grounded in reality, basically.

It's grounded in reality.

And actually, fundamentally, they value their strengths and their talents and abilities and they celebrate them, but they don't overplay them.

It's a subtle but really, really, really important difference.

Now imagine somebody who is diffident, really embracing that concept.

You imagine the difference that makes, because often someone is diffident in the context of, say, an organizational meeting.

They will be sat around the table with a negative mindset that's constantly putting themselves down.

You know, what have I got to offer in terms of this?

Do I have the strengths and the talents and the ability to contribute to this conversation?

So many people have talked to me about that in the context of coaching.

The coaching work that you do, where they want to talk about conf.

Are they coming from that diffident end, are they coming from the overplaying it.

End or usually the diffident end.

Okay, usually the diffident end, to be fair.

So.

And that diffidence is probably in all of us, but usually we'll gravitate to one end of that extreme and by understanding and embracing the concept of true humility.

So valuing your strengths, embracing your strengths and allowing those to flourish is important.

But the flip side of that coin in true humility is having a realistic, non defensive view.

Your weaknesses.

Can we flip flop?

Can we, can we sometimes be at the diffident end, sometimes be at the arrogant end?

We can flip flop.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So if you have a true view and recognition of your weaknesses, that is really important in the context of leadership because that means you'll be open and curious, you'll be open to other ideas and you will use other people to compensate for your own recognized strengths and weaknesses.

The danger is if you don't recognize your weaknesses, well, you'll either take inappropriate risks or you'll be unwilling to listen to other people's perspective when they have probably more strengths, talents and ability and knowledge in, in an area.

And, and actually your bravado and your arrogance is precluding you from seeing that in your experience.

Do you think so?

Let's just take somebody with that bravado, that arrogance, their, their, their, their over inflated view of self and as you already said, they're not particularly happy about receiving feedback about their weaknesses and what they're not so good at.

Can we get through to those people?

Can we actually through a process of feedback and, or have you get them to actually be more humble in time or are they kind of stuck?

I don't think so.

It's just about a willingness to be open to feedback.

Yeah.

And to listen to what other people think of you.

That's why I say true humility is where our view of self is aligned to what other people see.

So Rich, just to summarise what you said so far, true confidence is a balance of self awareness.

So valuing your strengths while also acknowledging you've got some limitations.

And it's a quiet assurance rooted in this, this concept of humility.

Yes, that's what we're saying.

Yeah, I like that term, quiet assurance.

I think that's, that's really powerful.

If you think about that in the context of our connected leadership model.

If you remember our connected leadership model, people can go and look on the website for details around that.

The center of our connected leadership model is the connected Center.

Yeah.

And this concept of self leadership.

So humility sits slap bang in the middle of that connected center and the concept of self leadership.

So in other words, a healthy view of your strengths and your weaknesses and a healthy view of your weaknesses and limitations.

So if we buy into Jim Collins's edict that to be a great leader you need to be humble, can we just now explore the role of humility in leadership?

I think that would be really important to explore that a bit more.

Yeah.

So in the context of leadership, often with people when they have a fragile sense of self esteem and confidence, whether that's arrogance or diffidence, that can express itself in a number of ways.

So perfectionism, for example, is a good example where a person's insecurities play itself out in always wanting to be perfect.

Because if you think about why are they striving for perfection, it's because their sense of self worth is rooted in, extrinsically, the way they perform.

So true humility is not where our sense of self worth is rooted in how we perform and how others see us.

But you're allowing yourself to say, right, okay, this is what I can do.

These are my limitations.

So when I do this thing, I'll just treat it.

It is a learning opportunity.

I know it's a cliche, but in other words, you will do your best, and then you will review what you've done, you'll do some lessons learned, and then you'll be prepared to learn from that experience.

So this idea of a growth mindset created by Carol Dweck, somebody with true humility will have a growth mindset where they have this healthy relationship between their strengths and their weaknesses, and they're constantly seeking to grow and develop.

And they don't hold perfectionism up is an unhealthy standard.

No.

And I guess it also feeds into.

You were talking about the intrinsic and extrinsic factors here.

We've talked about that on a previous podcast, about the importance of motivation being intrinsic, not extrinsic.

So somebody who is a leader with true confidence, I'm guessing, will also likely be motivated very intrinsically.

So they'll be.

Their motivation is rooted in their sense of purpose, their understanding of mastery, what they're good at.

And also obviously we talked about autonomy as well.

Yeah.

And it's rooted in a healthy sense of self worth.

Yeah.

So in other words, their self worth is not extrinsically linked to how they perform.

There's the danger of perfectionism.

Neither is it rooted in their self worth being compared to other people.

So somebody who has an unhealthy self worth will be continuously comparing themselves to others in an unhealthy way.

So, for example, if you think of.

The two of us, I don't compare myself to you, Rich.

But if you think about the two of us, we both have very different signature strengths and abilities.

Yes.

Yeah.

Okay.

We're very different from each other in some.

We have some common ground.

Yes, we have some common ground, but we're very different from each other in terms of our traits and our abilities, our talents, our behaviors.

Yeah.

So if my sense of self worth is rooted in my comparison of myself with other people, I'm gonna hide into nothing.

So you talk about tennis endlessly, right?

I'm not sure about endlessly, but I do love my tennis.

Yeah.

So if I was to take up tennis.

Go on.

I'm still with you.

I wouldn't be very good.

I've played tennis before when I was young and I was, you know, I reached a reasonable level of competence, but I wasn't naturally very good at it.

If I worked hard at it, I could probably get better If I took up tennis seriously.

And then I started to compare my tennis ability to your ability, who's been playing for years, that's really going to be unhelpful in terms of my self worth being compared to you.

That's true.

You know, I'm by no means the best player in my club because I started playing quite late.

I started in my mid-40s.

Yeah.

So again, if I compared myself to somebody who's been playing since they were a kid.

Exactly.

Been coached, you know, for many, many hours, again, that same could apply to me.

Yeah.

So your tennis ability is your tennis ability.

My tennis ability is my tennis ability.

So it's about actually valuing what you know, that you have and then making the best of those things.

Absolutely.

And not putting yourself down in comparison to other people.

So if you think about an example for me is I'm a musician.

I can play the piano to a fairly high level.

Yeah.

Okay.

One of the dangers that I fall into, and I particularly fell into in the past, and I have to stop myself doing this even today, but I think I've built a more healthy sense of humility around this, is comparing myself, my abilities, my ability to move my fingers, and comparing that to other people.

Okay.

So if I was to compare my synthesizer ability, for example, to somebody like Rick Weightman, you know, the famous progressive rock keyboard player who plays in.

Yes.

He has a particular way of playing and he can wiggle his fingers extremely fast and do stuff in the context of rock music that I can't do.

But what I'm very good at is weaving what I do sensitively to the context in which I'm playing.

So that's my strength and I make the best of that as opposed to continually comparing myself to others where they have very different strengths and talents and abilities, interestingly.

So this also plays into the whole concept of ego.

It does, yeah.

So Jim Collins talks about in his book that these humble leaders tend to have a lack of ego.

What he means by that is that they tend to, if someone has an ego, they tend to undermine their long term success by being very focused on sort of short term gain, personal gain.

Yes, yeah.

Whereas somebody who doesn't have that same drive around their ego actually doesn't want to take the credit for everything, sees it as a collaborative process.

It's not all about me and actually will think long term, what's the best thing to do long.

Long term.

Yeah.

So in Jim Collins's word, that healthy ego, in my words are a healthy sense of self worth.

Yeah.

So you're not continually comparing yourself to other people.

You don't have an unhealthy view of the way you're performing.

Perfectionism doesn't drive you in an unhealthy way.

So in other words, you value your own signature strengths, abilities, talents, and you combine that with a healthy sense of what your weaknesses are.

Well, he also picks up on the point that you made about you can't be good at everything.

Understanding where you do have strengths and really maximizing the use of those, but also understanding where maybe you don't have.

Yeah.

Yes.

Can I pick up on that?

Sorry to interrupt, but I think that's a really good point because good leaders that recognize they can't be all things to all people and they don't have strengths in all areas will actually then value the diversity and the different talents in their team and be prepared to develop those in a way where they don't feel threatened because they've got a healthy sense of ego and self worth.

What's really interesting is in the book he talks about this concept of the window and the mirror.

Okay, so let me just explain what that means.

So he said that these great leaders, they credit other people or external factors for successes.

So almost like they're looking out of the window and attributing the good results to the people around them or the circumstances in which they find themselves, rather than making it all about themselves.

But Conversely, when things don't work out quite so well, when things go wrong, when things fail, they then look in the mirror, they look at themselves and they look, what could I have done differently?

Yes.

And that's what he means by the window in the mirror.

Yeah.

And that is related to that healthy sense of accepting you have limitations and weaknesses and being prepared to explore those also to have feedback on those and to learn from those.

Yeah.

He also talked about, and I know you really buy into this whole concept, the concept of servant leadership where we focus on empowering others.

Yes.

We focus on building sustainable success through using collaboration rather than actually making it again all about me.

Yes.

And by fundamentally changing that lens through which you see what a good leader is.

That idea of servant leadership, I think comes from this idea of true humility and a healthy sense of self worth.

You can't be a servant leader if you've got fragile ego.

No.

Because you're not going to be prepared to allow others to grow and develop because you're going to feel threatened by that.

And servant leadership empowers people to be better than you.

But I think that's one of the things, you know, you get these light bulb moments in your life when you do it a bit, a bit of self development or someone gives you some feedback.

And one of the things, I think that was a real light bulb moment for me was when I found out that one of my motivational drivers is working towards successes and results.

But with and through other people.

I'm very much about collaborating.

Yeah.

And that's really important to me.

Yes.

Once you understand that and you understand that actually success is, isn't just about what you do, it's about what you enable others to do.

That, that is quite liberating.

That is quite a profound thing to understand.

Yeah.

It is liberating.

And you won't allow your insecurities to get in the way of that.

Because actually valuing other people's strengths and abilities and recognizing that maybe they're the, if you like the, the opposite side of the coin to your weaknesses, that could be really powerful because they can compensate for your weaknesses and limitations.

So somebody who is truly humble and has true humility, you'll see those people as very attractive.

Not in the traditional societal way of what I mean by being attractive, but.

As a human being, you gravitate towards them.

You gravitate towards them and you know, so somebody who is diffident, that can be a real inhibitor and have a toxic effect on people around them.

So think about this.

The Whole name of this podcast is unleash your impact.

Unlock others.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So that suggests to me that if you're going to unleash your impact and be truly influential as a leader, humility has to be at the forefront of who you are as a leader.

Because if you value your strengths, value your signature abilities, that's really important.

In other words, it's your fingerprint, your leadership fingerprint.

Every fingerprint is different and unique, and you should value your fingerprint because it's yours.

And that will be made up of different talents, abilities, strengths, knowledge, experience.

That's your signature style.

Yeah.

You know, rest in that, be grounded by that, and accept that your weaknesses and limitations can be compensated by other people.

So by valuing your strengths and abilities, you'll unlock the potential in you because you allow your strengths to be developed, and you'll be confident to use those in an assertive, not aggressive way.

And you will want to work with people in your team to unlock their abilities in a way that you don't feel threatened by.

And the combination of those two things is really powerful.

I'm guessing also, humility can show up in different ways.

If you take us, you've made the point that we're actually, as human beings, quite different.

So you probably would be described as a bit more quiet and reserved compared to me.

I'm probably a bit more talkative and a bit more out there than you, but actually.

So we can both be humble.

But does that show up in different ways?

Yeah, it does.

I think I'd like to write a book.

I'm sure there's a book already out there about the power of.

Of being a leader and being an introvert.

And so I.

I think there was a time in my leadership career, when I think back, where my natural introvert, reflective, quiet style, I thought, no, that's me.

I'm okay with that.

And I'm going to bring that to bear in how I engage in meetings and with people.

The irony of all of that was I became more confident and my voice was more heard, but I chose my moments to confidently say, right, this is what I think.

So, in other words, I was fundamentally okay with me being a strong introvert and me being a quiet, reflective person, and I can be a really good leader with those traits.

At what point did you discover that?

I think there was a particular time in my career where I was required to engage with leaders that were fairly macho.

Because when I think of one of the leadership meetings I used to go to, there was all Men, all white men actually.

And they were behaving, not all of them to be fair, but in quite macho, arrogant, overconfident ways.

I felt I had to ape their behaviors.

Yeah.

To fit in.

To fit in.

So in other words, my self worth was unhealthy because I was comparing myself unfavourably to the other people and not recognizing, actually I can be a different voice.

I can be a different fingerprint in this context.

And to bring my fingerprint, my own unique style, bring that to the table and just to be okay with who I am.

Well, that points to the fact that if true confidence is about also being authentic as well, you have to be authentically who you are.

Yes, exactly.

So to find your voice in the context of leadership is to be okay with who you are.

And that is at the root of true humility and true authenticity.

Okay, Rich, so let's talk about some actionable insights that people listening to this podcast can take away.

So let's start with self reflection.

We've talked about that before.

I presume self reflection would be really important in being truly confident and being humble.

So what would your advice be there?

So from what we've talked about today, the people listening will know whether they will tend to be naturally diffident or arrogant.

So it's important to be honest about that and to recognize that we all have those traits.

If they're not sure, go and ask someone.

Yes, go and ask somebody.

So I think it's really important that it's part of the process of self reflection that you acknowledge your limitations as well as your strengths and you practice seeking feedback and use that feedback is fuel for your self reflective practice.

So that's one thing.

What about a daily practice, something that somebody could do every day that would lead them in this direction.

So the coaching approach in leadership, as we've said before on many occasions, is really important.

We advocate a coaching approach.

So rather than going into your team meetings and asserting your authority and saying, right, this is the way forward and there are times to do that, but that not being your default position, start meetings by asking questions and using a coaching approach to draw stuff out of people.

So if there's a decision to be made, rather than you saying, right, this is the decision, ask your people, ask what they think.

So don't start with what you know, what you want to do, what you're assuming is to be.

And you might be surprised.

Well, hopefully you won't be surprised by the answers that you'll get from your people.

And I also think it's really important to credit the team for their successes.

In other words, you take the spotlight off you.

It's not all about you.

You credit individuals and the team for your successes.

So if there's one starting point, if someone's going to listen to this and do something different today or tomorrow, what's the first thing you'd recommend?

They I would say after every meeting to give yourself a mark out of 10 for how humble you were in that meeting.

Well, there you go.

Interesting.

Interesting.

Yeah.

So let's just summarize the key points of what we've talked about today.

So true confidence is grounded in humility.

It's about being honest.

It's about being self aware, and it's about valuing other people as much as you value yourself.

It's about encouraging self reflection, recognizing where you are to have strengths and where you can use those strengths, but also recommending where you have limitations, or I think you call it weaknesses as well.

So a final call to action.

Rich, in my experience, and I don't know if you agree with me, I don't see true confidence in leadership as often as I'd like to.

Agreed.

So a call to action for anybody who's listening to this podcast today is, first of all, maybe share this episode with a colleague because they might learn something about what true confidence is.

But also start a conversation in your business around what does confidence in leadership look like in our organization?

Yeah.

And use the H word.

So in other words, define what we mean by humility and make sure that underpins the way you lead in the organization that I believe can be culture changing.

Yeah, I agree.

So, Rich, thanks for bringing your expertise to this conversation today.

Really, really interesting topic.

I'm sure we could talk for many more hours about it.

Yes.

But just remember, anybody who's listening, true confidence isn't about having all the answers.

It's about being grounded.

It's about continuing to grow as a human being, but it's also about empowering everybody around you.

You.

And wouldn't the workplace be a better place if all of our leaders did that?

It would.

So next time on Unleash youh Impact, Unlock Others, we're going to talk about resilience.

Yes.

Another very interesting topic which I think.

Is rooted in being grounded and having true humility.

I agree.

So until then, listeners, have a great week.

And we'll be back with resilience in a week's time.

Thank you.

Thank you.