Who’s Driving the Conversation: Is your PAC-Man out of control? | #46

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Welcome once again to Unleash youh Impact, Unlock Others. This is a leadership Unscripted episode with myself, Dave Morris, and my colleague, Rich Horton. Hi, Rich.

Hi, Dave.

Now, this podcast today is all about workplace relationships and what's driving the conversation in terms of workplace relationships. And, Rich, I'm going to introduce this today with a little analogy, a little metaphor for you, which I hope you find entertaining.

And hopefully you'll see the point of it as I. As I go through it.

Okay.

So not sure what's coming.

I'm not sure what's coming. Well, this is definitely unscripted.

Hold your horses. So I'm calling. This might give you a bit of a clue as to where I'm going with this. I'm calling this episode. Who's driving the Conversation?

Is your Pac man out of control? So do you. Do you remember. You remember back in the 80s, Rich? I know you do because you're old enough. The game, the arcade game, Pac Man.

Oh, I do, yeah.

And it was an action maze game.

I mean, I didn't play arcade games, but as I understand it, it was an action maze game where basically you chased a load of dots and you had to eat dots, but you had to avoid ghosts who tried to disrupt you doing it. And the ghosts, apparently, yeah, the ghosts were called, in case you didn't remember this, Blinky, Pinky, Inky and Clyde.

Oh, right. No, I didn't know that because I never played Pac man, so I'm not really a games. The games per.

So Blinky, Pinky, Inky and Klyce tried to stop Pac man eating the dots. You had to avoid the ghosts. Yeah. But actually, to help you do that, you could also pick up some power pellets.

Power pellets or energizers that helped you win the game.

Okay.

And that's Pac Man. P A C M A N. Okay. So I'm going to use the analogy of I reckon workplace relationships are a bit like playing a game of Pac Man. There are.

You need to energize yourself. You need to have the power pellets, the effective way of communicating with your colleagues.

But there's going to be some things, the ghosts that are going to get in the way. How do you avoid the pinky, blinky, Inky and Clyde? And how do you make sure you use your power pellets? That's the analogy Rich I'm using today.

So using the analogy pac. Pac, what does that mean in terms of workplace relationships? Can you explain that?

Because there's a psychological underpin to this which I think is now worth talking about.

Yes.

He did a lot of research around what happens between people when they have a relationship, and he focused a lot on dysfunctional relationships.

And so in other words, what are the transactions going on bit between people when they're engaged in a relationship and in a conversation in a relationship. So hence it's called transactional analysis.

It's a bit of a mouthful, but transactional analysis became really popular and is still popular today, actually, because he used some very powerful analogies. The PAC in transactional analysis stands for parent, adult, and child, what he called ego states.

And we'll explain what we mean by that a little bit later.

And so this idea of the parent, adult, and child ego states still persists today, and it's not uncommon in the context of leadership training for this model to be used as a framework for thinking about what unhealthy and healthy relationships look like.

Yeah, And I guess my analogy is that the adult ego state, that's your power pellet. That's the thing that, you know, is going to make your communication really effective. The potential ghosts are the parent and child ego states.

And I know you're going to unpack this and explain this for us, but they could potentially, they could potentially get in your way. So these are the things we have to be really cognizant of when we're actually trying to develop workplace relationships.

Yeah, and I'll develop that a little bit further, actually. So your rights, on one level, the parent and the child states could get in your way.

Could not.

Yeah, but actually, but actually they, they can be power pellets if. If they're effectively used in the context of the adult ego state. And we talk all about that.

Okay, so where do we start with all of this then, Rich?

Okay, well, so I think it's important to think. Think about this concept of the ego state because it sounds a little bit therapeutic, it sounds a little bit psychological.

So I just want to really take that idea and just put it in plain and simple language. So when we're talking about ego states here, essentially what we're talking about, it's a bit like a mini Me. Yeah, yeah.

So it's an aspect of ourself that gets triggered and shows up in different contexts. And I'm sure you've come across this.

You know, it's possible that with different people, a different side of our personality, our Personas show up, you know, different mini me's, if you like. You know, so with. With certain people, perhaps I could be more childlike. I don't mean childish childlike. Or I could be more in the. In the. In.

In the parent sort of state. So.

So Eric Byrne, when he did this transactional analysis research, he looked at these different, if you like, mini me's, these different Personas that showed up in the context of these relationships with people. And he categorized them into these three categories. Sort of like a parent sort of mini me, child, mini me.

And the most important, that the adult goes beyond an ego state, really. But is the third one is the. Is the adult.

It's the mindset you bring to the relationship. I think that's what we're trying to talk. The ego state is the mindset you bring to the relationship, isn't it? At that moment in time.

At that moment in time.

Yeah. Yeah, at that moment in time. So it's what's, you know, which part of you is showing up in that particular moment.

Yeah.

And the interesting thing with Eric Burns transactional analysis is these different ego states, they've basically been scripted in us since childhood.

So his research suggested that if you think back to your childhood, and this is not a therapy session, by the way, but just think back to your childhood and think about what your parent or your caregiver or significant people in authority for you when you were a child, think about some of the beliefs and if you like, the cultural norms that they instilled in you as a child.

So it's interesting you say that, Rich. If I think back to. One of the most significant people in my life growing up was my grandfather.

And one of the things he did in me is he instilled curiosity. He instilled a belief that actually creative play is a really good thing.

And, you know, I often now really enjoy being in my creative childlike state when I'm actually being creative and having fun. And that definitely goes back to how he used to interact with me. And I get a lot of joy by being in that state, if that makes sense.

Yeah. So the nuance with the Eric Burns stuff is actually those scripts are what plays out for us in our interactions with other people.

So particularly for people in authority. So, for example, some of the beliefs that were instilled in me from my parents was to be very deferential to people in authority, for example.

So they were beliefs that were instilled in me, me from childhood. Now, you might say that's a good thing. Some people might say that's not a good thing. But the fact is those scripts are in my head.

So Eric Burns said, actually, if you've got a script in your head, like a.

Like a little mini me, a schema, a Persona, what happens in adulthood when we're operating on the unconscious level is these Personas can get triggered when we meet some. Somebody that's like, similar to those interactions that we had as children.

So, for example, you know, when I walk into a boardroom full of senior people, those scripts instilled in me as a child, in my early career, they played out with me being deferential. So that's what we call the child ego state. We'll unpack the ego states or the Personas or the mini me's in a little while.

But the point is, often what happens is these mini mes get triggered unconsciously. And usually then that's where problems can happen in relationships because we're on autopilot and the scripts are driving our interactions.

So what Eric Burns said is actually what we need to do is to engage, is engage the adult state. In other words, this is a part of us that is able to be objective and be in charge and to bring conscious choice to those engagements. So we can park.

We can consciously park the scripts by becoming aware of them.

And all this plays out very situationally, doesn't it? So in one situation, you could be tapping into your mini me, which is your parental mini me.

In another situation, you might tap into your child mini me. And this can flip all day long, depending on what you're interacting.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And with different people, different contexts, all of those things.

You know, so, you know, we'll unpack those different ego states for the parent and child in a little bit more depth in a moment.

Okay. So this will play out in terms of conversations we have. It'll play out in terms of the tone of voice we use, our behavior.

There's always to sort of spot this stuff happening, isn't there?

Yes, yes, absolutely. So I think it's probably just worth me unpacking some of those ego states.

Yep.

And I think people will start to notice. Oh, yeah. I can see that pattern in myself or in other people in my team. And it's almost like you can see the Drama playing out.

Okay, so let's take the parent ego state, or mini me. Okay. So Eric Byrne essentially said that the parent ego state, it is a bit like two sides to a coin. Okay.

So there's what he called the sort of supportive parent. Yeah, okay. Nurture, nurturing parent. So that's a nurturing side.

So the other side of the coin is what we call the controlling parent, you know, so this is the side of us, if you like, that learned how to engage with, you know, people in authority. And it's the part of us that actually, you know, wants to control and to. And to direct.

So if you think about that, two sides of that coin, the nurturing parent, that's the supportive, nurturing side of us, and the controlling parent, that's the directive sort of controlling parent. Both of those parental states have positive and negative attributes to it.

Yeah, they do.

Okay. Yeah, Think about a controlling parent.

So there are times actually, if any people out there are parents, you will know actually that it's healthy for children to have boundaries, to have healthy discipline in place, to have structure, all of that sort of stuff. That's a good thing that a parent puts in place for their children.

So good leaders and managers put structure, control, process, all of that sort of stuff, you know, boundaries around how a team operates. That can be really healthy and actually motivating makes a team feel safe and secure.

They know where they're going and they know the manager has got their back. So that's the positive control in parent. However, when that's overplayed and say a parent with a child. So going back to real parent, real children.

So when a parent becomes hypercritical, hyper controlling, there can be aggression in there, there can be over control, there can be sort of micromanagements, all of that sort of stuff. Every part of the child's life is just, you know, managed to the nth degree. And you can see that playing out in terms of how managers are as well.

So if they overplay their parent ego state, so they become too aggressive, too overbearing, too controlling to micromanaging, you know, so. So on the parent side, there's nurturing, controlling parent, positive and negative.

Yeah.

So the child ego states actually that they're again, just like with the parent ego state, there are two sides to the coin. It's what we call, it's a bit of a technical term, but what we call the adaptive child.

So the adaptive child is the part of us that learns to find its place in society. You know, when to step back, when to when to be deferential, you know, when to, when to hold our tongue.

And actually that can be really useful as a, as a human being finding their place in society. Yeah, okay. You know, knowing when to challenge and when not to challenge can actually keep you safe.

Yeah.

You know, and you can see how that plays, you know, plays out in work because sometimes, you know, having the wisdom to know when to challenge your senior person or not to challenge your senior person, when it's safe to do that, and knowing that, you know, that can be, that can be really good. So that's the positive side of the adaptive child.

However, when that's overplayed and becomes unhealthy, that child ego state turns us into a person that could be overly deferential, that bows to authority without question. You know, so, so actually we can become very submissive.

Yeah.

And not challenge when we need to challenge. And that can be a real challenge for a leader. That could be a real challenge for a leader.

Because, you know, usually leaders, you know, they're paid to be influential and to be assertive and to, you know, to challenge and to all those, all those sorts of things. And actually if their ego state's getting in the way of that, that can stop them being appropriately assertive.

Yeah, absolutely.

So, and then the other side of the child ego state is what we call the creative chart, if you like, which Eric Byrne thought was a really important ego state. It's what you alluded to earlier on when you're talking about your upbringing with your grandfather.

Actually, you know, tapping into that curious creative side of us is that spontaneous side of us is really important and it's really important in the context of work as well, because you want team members to be innovative and spontaneous and creative and, and all that sort of stuff, you know, because, you know, otherwise everything would stay the same. So that, that's really healthy. However, when that's overplayed, that's when people can become rebellious.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And push back in quite an aggressive sort of way.

So if you think about those four different ego states, what often happens is a negative parent ego state would trigger in another person probably a negative child state.

So in the context of you being a leader in your team, you know, if you're an over controlling manager and you want to control every aspect of what your team does and you micromanage, don't be surprised if either you get a rebellious child response in inverted commas in your team members and, or a response where people just sit there and say nothing, you know, because they Feel that, you know, that they feel you're, you know, overbearing, aggressive. So they just sit there and they, that they're saying nothing, you know, and that leads to innovation, being stifled, mistakes, not being owned up to.

All of that sort of stuff can play out when you see those negative parent states and child ego states start to interact unconsciously with each other.

Another example would be, and this is a little bit more subtle, so there might be people out there saying, well, I never do that, you know, I'm really good at delegating and that sort of stuff. But actually your Achilles heel might be as a leader and a manager, you might be the over nurturing parent. So this plays out quite subtly.

So in other words, the over nurturing parent is the leader of. The manager thinks they know best. So that. Or they try to rescue somebody.

Yeah.

So they see somebody in trouble, you know, perhaps somebody is struggling with a task and what they do is they jump in, they rescue the person, they give them the answer, they solve the problem for them and then what impact does that have?

Yeah, absolutely. The person's not going to learn for themselves, are they?

Yeah, the person. Exactly. Person's not going to learn for themselves. So you can see actually, you know, this can really play out in quite subtle ways.

And you know, every one of you listening, including me and including Dave, every one of us has scripts that probably are unconsciously playing out, particularly when we're engaged in a relationship that, that feels dysfunctional and difficult.

It's probably also worth saying, yes, it applies to every single one of us.

And I would suspect it if you were flying the wall watching yourself for a whole 24 hours, or the part of that 24 hours where you're actually awake is that.

Yeah.

At times during that day you will be tapping into your nurturing parent, your controlling parent, your adaptive child, your rebellious child. Yeah, that's. All of these, all of these states are going to play up at some point in an average day for everybody.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the key to this, if you like, the antidote to this is actually engaging the adult ego state, or perhaps more accurately, the adult mindset.

Yeah.

So I regard the adult ego state as more of a, like a meta state. So it's the part of us that's able to step back, to be self aware and to look objectively at what's going on.

So Dave, you were born, I think we were born nearly the same year in, in the mid-60s. Right?

Okay, that's right.

And our formative years were in the 70s and the 80s. Okay. So I don't know whether you did the same, but I had a load of albums and I used to go out on a Saturday.

I used to buy an album, but usually alongside an album that I bought, I buy a cassette tape and I go home and I record the album onto cassette tape to listen to on my Walkman or whatever. Okay. Or the car. So when Eric Byrne talks about scripts from childhood that get played unconsciously, they're a bit like cassette tapes. Okay.

So if you think about a cassette tape, once the thing is recorded, when you press play, the same thing is going to come out every time. So if in our interactions, those scripts are being played out unconsciously, we're going to get the same results every time.

It's almost like there's a part of us that presses the play button without us knowing.

Without us knowing. Yeah, yeah.

So the adult ego state is really important here because what the adult ego state does is it notices. Ah. Actually play button has been pressed for this particular para ego state. And I need to press stop. Yeah, I need to stop it going off. Okay.

And what I need to do is then. Is then to decide. No, actually what I'm going to do is I'm going to engage in this particular context my.

Maybe it's the controlling parent, my positive controlling parent. Or maybe I need to be the creative child in this scenario or maybe, you know, whatever that might be.

Actually you're making intentional conscious decisions to flex your mindset in terms of the context of what's going on. And that's really. That's really important to realize. So. So this is bringing self awareness and self management into play at the same time.

So the scripts that you have in your head do not have to always play out. You have the power to stop the tape. Yeah.

And I think you mentioned this at the beginning. It's the conscious awareness and the intentional behavior which comes from the adult state, which is really, really important.

So as a leader, if I want to, when we've talked on this podcast before about the job of a leader is to send positive ripples out into their team, into their organization, and into the world beyond. And the adult ego state, the adult mindset is key to sending these positive ripples out.

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a bit like an aeroplane on autopilot, you know, so, you know, the autopilot in Airplane has been programmed in.

It's got a number of parameters, and that's just playing out. And actually what we're doing is part of this transactional Analysis way of working is we're putting the pilot back in the seat.

So let's bring this to life, Rich. Yeah, let's bring this to life in terms of some practical, real scenarios.

So how might this pac this pack these lenses, if you like, that we're looking at human relationships through how might they show up? So let's take for example, feedback conversation. You give somebody some feedback. How might this play out in a feedback conversation?

Okay, it could play out in a number of ways, I guess, but. So for example, what might happen is you're a manager sat in, in your one to one. Okay.

And you know, you're both having an adult to adult conversation and it's playing out really well and then suddenly your team member decides to give you a little bit of feedback. Okay. Yeah. So they feel safe. Okay.

And they say, I noticed that in this situation you have a tendency to do this and this is the impact, it's having a real impact on the team. So what's interesting is how you respond to that bit of feedback.

Because what sometimes can happen is you feel quite affronted by that little bit of feedback that I've got. And you move might go into the rebellious chard or negative adaptive chard state.

So you could sit there with your arms folded thinking, I'm not listening to this load of rubbish. Okay. Passive aggressive.

Yeah.

Or you could go into the rebellious child mode and get defensive and kick back and say, well, that's just a load of nonsense. You know, you push back on the feedback as opposed to engaging your adult state.

Notice the trigger pressing the stop button and say, okay, that's really interesting. Tell me a bit more so I can learn about that. So what you're doing is you're consciously pressing the stop button to stop the script playing.

Yeah. I think it's really important that we notice what's going on for us in these situations so that we can press the stop button.

Because it's quite a natural reaction to be defensive or go on the attack. You know, in that scenario you've just explained, it's very natural to do that.

But the emotionally intelligent leader is the one that can actually step back, as you said, put that little gap in and say. Right, actually. Which is the right way to respond to what I've just heard.

And often the right way to respond is, as you said, to ask for some more detailed information.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ask a question. Don't try and respond automatically.

Yeah. The other way it can play out is you might be giving feedback to one of Your team members. Okay. And you get the defensive response back. Okay.

And then the defensive response back then triggers in you the critical over controlling parent and you go back and say, well, it's true, you know, and then you're quite aggressive in your response back.

So these negative charged child ego states can sort of like build this cycle of negativity where their script has started to be played because they've heard some feedback. And then their response to your, to your feedback triggers another script in you.

And then both scripts are playing and then, and then it really starts to go downhill from there.

Another way that could play out as well is that rather than you going into your critical parent, you think, oh my God, I've upset them. I go into my negative nursing parent. And actually you, you almost try to diffuse the feedback you've given because you don't upset somebody.

So this, there's lots of subtlety and nuance around this and I know it's not, it's not easy sometimes to spot and it's not easy to do the right thing, but a skilled leader will notice it and a skilled leader will do the right thing.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

So let's take another example and this is probably, probably one where most of us have to do this a lot in a working week. Decision making, let's say we need to make some decisions in the workplace. It might be the team are together trying to make a decision.

How might this play out in a decision making process?

Okay, so just trying to think here. So that's quite interesting. So the controlling parent side of us would want to be in, in tell mode. Okay, this is what we're doing.

Yeah.

Okay. And that might be right and appropriate and proper for that context. But actually is your unconscious script being triggered in that scenario?

So are you just telling people and then that's stopping you from getting their input, their engagement.

So you know, that could be instilled in you from childhood as well, you know, because you know, you feel you're the one who has to step up and take charge because that's the scripts that's been instilled in you is parents.

The other way it can play out is part of your team is if that's your natural style of leadership, you could have people in your team that naturally gravitate towards the deferential child state that we've been talking about and just say yes to everything you say because they're being presented with this controlling parent. So be aware that you know, when you behave in certain way that can trigger, you know, negative states in other people that you might not spot.

You know, so you might, you might be making decisions and thinking everyone's agreeing with you around the table, but they're actually just been triggered and they're shutting up. And actually there are voices in the room which could say something that could mean you make a different decision.

Yeah, yeah. So again, as a skilled leader, you need to spot this stuff happening, don't you?

A, you need to be very self aware and you need to reflect on if a conversation has gone either really, really well, what is it you did.

It's probably quite likely that for that conversation you stayed in that adult mindset for a large part of that conversation and you probably then drew on the positive aspects of the parent or the child. But if that conversation didn't go very well, again, what is it that happened? What mindset was I in? How did I trigger other people?

What did I see in other people?

It takes a bit of reflection to work this out sometimes, but this is really valuable information about having these really effective workplace relationships.

Yes.

Any other examples, Richard, to bring this to life, you think is what we're worth talking about today?

The only other thing I would say was we advocate using a coaching approach in the context of leadership and management. So making sure you're not always in that tell mindset.

The danger when we're in a coaching mindset is actually we turn into the rescuer and we think we know best. And what we do is when we see people struggling, we try to step in and solve the problem for them.

So, you know, what I would say here is to allow the coaching process to take its course. Almost allow the people to live with the discomfort of the problem, but support them through the process of making the decision for themselves.

So don't become the rescuer. I think.

No. And go back to my analogy at the beginning around the Pac man game.

If you are staying in your adult mindset, so you're taking your power pellets and you're energizing a conversation in a really effective way. What that encourages the other person to do is for them to get into their adult mindset and take their energy pellets.

They can also access their adult mindset. And if you're talking on an adult, adult mindset level, that's the best place to be most.

Exactly right. Yeah. Exactly right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And the other thing just to notice, particularly in the context of, say, conflict, where you're having a difficult conversation with somebody, if somebody starts to behave inappropriately and you see them slipping into one of the negative ego states or mini me's.

If you stay in the adult state when somebody has been triggered and their cassette tape is playing, if you stay in the adult state and continue to stay there and not get drawn into the drama, it's much more likely that in time, through the conversation, the other person will be drawn back into the adult mindset as well. You know, so that adult mindset as a presence in the conversation can be really powerful.

Yeah, well, I guess the benefits of doing that is it creates clarity, it creates trust, creates respect, it helps with emotional regulation, ultimately leads to better problem solving because you're doing it in a shared way. So there's lots of really good benefits of this adult. Adult mindset when we're communicating. Yeah. Okay, so.

And I guess we've talked on this pod before, and I'm sure we'll talk about it again, about emotional intelligence as one of the key aspects of being an effective leader. And this is, this, this adult, Adult communication is a key part of being an emotionally intelligent leader as well, isn't it?

Yes. Yeah. Yeah, it is. Because if we're in the adult.

If we're in the adult state, we will know when the tape is being triggered and we will have the wherewithal to press the stop button and to engage with actually what's really going on in the room. So we bring that sort of grounded, authentic presence to the room. And that can be really powerful. That can be really powerful.

So let's talk about some tools to shift the dynamics in our conversation. So let's just say we are slipping away into the negative aspects of the parent ego state or the negative aspects of the child ego state.

We think, oh, ah, I can catch myself doing this. I need to quickly shift the dynamic here. What sort of tools can people use to do that?

So I think when you start to notice the temperature in the room rising, okay.

And you engage the adult mindset, what the adult mindset would do is to take a step away from the drama and ask questions like, you know, actually, what are the facts here?

What's actually going on right now, and not allow, you know, your formed stories about that person to unhealthily frame your interpretation of what's going on, you know, because, you know, we all have stories about people and, and when we start to get sucked into the drama, those stories become an unhelpful framing of the conversation. So, so stop, take a step back, ask really what's going on here? And actually what are the facts right now?

What actually is happening how are they actually behaving? And try to try to remove the judgment and the interpretation.

Yeah. Okay. Anything else that you'd recommend for people to do in this situation?

So the other thing I think you can do is to see if you can spot patterns of triggers.

So for me, I shared earlier on, and it still happens today, to be fair, but I've learned to manage it more effectively is to learn to spot the patterns of triggers.

So, for example, for me, walking into a room full of senior people, that would be an example of one of the categories of triggers, you know, so engaging with the senior person. So, you know, so I manage my sense of self in that context to say, no, you know, I'm a person of value here.

I've got a perspective that's valuable in this context and to hold my ground in the context of my position in that room. I'm the adult as well. They're the adult. They have a point of view. They have a set of experiences and skills. So do I.

And there's a genuine meeting of adult to adult mindset. So that's about just understanding what different scenarios, what sort of different people trigger you.

And then you can put in place then strategies for managing that.

So, for example, when I go into a room full of senior people now, I've learned to manage it better, but sometimes I just have to stop and say, no, I'm the adult here. That's my little reframing reset, if you like.

Yeah, yeah, I think that's a really good point, actually spotting the things that trigger you.

And that could be a person, it could be a situation, it could be where you are not just who you're with, but actually understanding those common triggers that actually send you in the wrong direction. Send you towards Pinky, Inky, Clyde.

Yes.

Yeah. Those are the things you want to avoid. Those are the things you want to avoid.

And I guess you're only going to really do that if you engage in some reflection. Because to do this in the moment, if you never do any reflection, is going to be quite hard.

So we know, we've talked about, on the podcast before, we've talked about. Are you engaging in some regular reflection? Because if you do that, you will start to spot this stuff.

You will start to spot the triggers, you will start to spot the behaviors and the narratives that sometimes send you in the wrong direction, and you'll start to spot the outcomes that you don't want that could have been avoided. But you can only do these things if you build some reflection time into your working Week.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

And that'd be. That would be my. I think my top tip here is to intentionally use reflection to improve, if you need to, your workplace relationships.

Yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, you can ask some very simple questions of yourself.

You know, what, what default ego state do you notice in those tough moments? I've just described some myself, actually.

After a difficult conversation, just take a little bit time to reflect, what state was I in and why did I feel so emotionally uncomfortable? And I think the other thing that I do, I use this model a lot when I work with teams and I explain the model to them.

And the power of the model is it gives the team a shared language and shared mental model, if you like to know, actually. So when they notice each other going into, say, a negative child or parent state, they can give the team feedback in a sort of neutral way.

Because you have a shared set of language and a shared set of expectations around how you're going to behave.

Yeah, I guess if you do that, if somebody does spot that somebody else in the team is unhealthily tapping into an ego state that isn't helping the team, they can call you out on it. They can give you a bit of feedback on it.

Yes.

And that's okay because we will understand what's going on.

Yeah, yeah.

I suspect most teams don't operate like that, but if they did, I think it could be really helpful.

Yes.

So going back to the title of this podcast, who's driving the conversation? Is your pac man out of control? The answer is for all of us at times, yes, it will be. It's just, are we spotting it?

Are we able to do something about it? And I hope this conversation today has helped people, you know, at least do that first bit, Rich, is, can I spot this stuff? Can I spot the triggers?

Can I spot the patterns of behavior? And can I start to think about how am I going to do something differently in the future?

Yeah.

So, listeners, thank you for joining us today. Reflect on your relational habits.

Please encourage sharing this episode with anyone navigating tricky team dynamics or just anybody wanting to lead with more emotional intelligence. Because as I said earlier on, this comes to the heart of being an emotionally intelligent human being and emotionally intelligent leader.

So, Rich, thank you for your time today. Really, really interesting topic. I'm sure we could dive into this a lot deeper, but today we give a flavour. Yeah.

So keep taking those power pellets and avoid pinky, blinky, inky and Clyde. And for the day, that's all from me.

Yeah. Thank you. And for me, cheers by.