The Secret to Unlock Inclusive Leadership: The Hidden Power of Connection, Curiosity & Courage | #16

Welcome to Unleash youh Impact, Unlock Others, a podcast about inspiring leadership.

We hope to bring you grounded wisdom, stories from real leaders and leave you feeling inspired.

Let's dive in.

So, welcome to Unleash youh Impact, Unlock Others and this voices of Leadership episode where we explore real stories and insights from leaders who are making a difference.

And today, I'm very excited to be joined by Liz Crutchley, the CEO and founder of Orange Orchid, a passionate advocate for inclusive leadership and creating belonging in the workplace.

Now, Liz has a rich background in HR strategy, culture and inclusion.

And her journey from a traditional working class family in Birmingham to leading her own leadership consultancy is an inspiring story of resilience, curiosity and commitment making workplaces more inclusive.

Today we'll be diving into Liz's personal journey, her approach to creating belonging and how leaders can future proof their organizations by unlocking inclusive thinking.

We'll also be discussing an exciting upcoming workshop she's running in conjunction with Ventano entitled Unlocking Inclusive Thinking.

So, without further ado, let's meet Liz.

So, Liz, hi.

Hi, Dave.

How are you?

I'm very well.

The sun's shining outside, it's a beautiful day, so it makes you feel good, doesn't it?

So thank you very much for being here today.

You're welcome.

A topic that's really close to my heart, inclusive leadership.

I think it's so vital in the world that we are now living and working in.

But before we get into some of your thoughts around that, can we just sort of start with who's Liz?

What's your background?

Where did you come from and what led you to work in the field that you're now working in?

Yeah, of course, Dave.

So I'm what I call an HR lifer.

So I've worked in HR as a career for my whole working career and I guess I fell into it.

It wasn't something, you know, you don't know when you're 20, what really what you want to do.

So I fell into it as a profession and I'd always had an interest in fairness for people, you know, So I remember doing projects at school.

I remember a project in re, when I must have been about 12 on Martin Luther King.

Yeah.

And investigating and learning.

And it was back in the.

The bus into Birmingham at the Birmingham Central Library back in the day.

And you could rent out pictures, you could rent out, like printed out pictures that were laminated and I rented some out and took them back to school for my project.

And it just, the story captivated me and I Didn't really know why at the time.

And then it's not until you look back and I think of examples in my life of people who were different that I'd shown an interest in or not understanding why some people were treated differently.

So as I progressed through my HR career, I did a good stint in reward and benefits because I was good behind a spreadsheet, so got pushed into that and then probably over the last 10 or 15 years just had a massive interest in diversity and inclusion, which typically sits within HR departments in big corporates.

And the more I learned about it, the more I realized actually this is just part of my value set.

This is just something about the way I've been brought up, maybe, or the things that I think are fair or not fair.

And actually that I want to be an ally to people who were underrepresented or perhaps haven't been treated or hasn't had opportunities that I've had equally as a female growing up and as a female getting to quite a senior level in the corporate world, I've faced lots of things myself that, you know, in talking to other people, you think, okay, I didn't realize that was just me because I'm a woman.

And then you're talking to men.

And the power of that conversation and sharing those stories and realizing, well, that's not fair.

Why have I got these extra hurdles to jump through that perhaps other people haven't got?

It's interesting because, and I've spoken about this on a previous podcast, my sister was in the Forest Service, so she's come up against all sorts of stuff that really you shouldn't have to put up with in the workplace.

And of course as a, as a middle aged white man, I've not had to put up with that stuff.

It's not that I haven't come across some people that maybe I felt were a bit of a blockage to my career or what have you, but I wouldn't have experienced what she's experienced and what you've experienced.

So I guess it's starting to understand what the world looks like from other people's perspectives, particularly people maybe who are not just in marginal groups, but maybe that people are, dare I say it, Liz, Marginalized because they don't fit the.

Yeah.

The norm, as it were.

And certainly, you know, so if I think to now what I work with.

So since I set up Orange Orchid, our whole thing is about disrupting the system.

I think for too long we've tried to change individuals to fit in to a system that Wasn't created in a way that's inclusive.

So we've asked people to change themselves, you know.

So if I give you an example.

Yeah.

I must have been in my corporate leadership life on three courses that specifically told me how to be a leader, leader as a female.

So in one of them I got taught to start speaking in a lower tone of voice because I was told nobody would take me seriously because I had quite a high pitched voice.

And therefore when you start needing inflection to bring energy to a conversation, they said you're getting higher and higher and nobody will take you serious because you've got a high pitched voice, you know.

And to this day I think I speak in the way that they train me in that course.

Just because when you're told that's what you need to do to get on in work or in life, sometimes you don't question it so much, you know.

And I, I've been told what's appropriate to wear, how low cut a top, what earrings to wear, how short a skirt is appropriate or not, what sort of shoes to wear.

And I think, do you know what, if this is about portraying a professional corporate image and we're talking to everybody about this and there's an organization that wants that to be important, well, that's fine.

But don't just tell women what skirts they can wear and what, whether a low top is appropriate or not.

And this is, this is where over time I've just realized, actually we just spend too much time trying to change people.

And it's time that we actually just start challenging that system and asking, well, why is that important?

And I'm not saying it's not important, but we just need to start having those discussions more.

I think you've made a really important point about stop trying to change the people.

Let's get our systems fit for purpose.

Rich and I talk about, and I'm writing some papers on it at the moment, about how leadership needs to change because leadership happens inside a system.

Now if that system is disconnected, and I think our systems of work are disconnected, not just male to female.

Traditionally we've always saying this, but it's true.

Valued what are deemed to be male attributes over female attributes.

And that's got to change because they shouldn't be male and female attributes, they should be leadership attributes.

But that's just one example.

Left brain thinking is far more dominant than right brain thinking.

There's loads of stuff where we are disconnected and the system is the problem, not the people that are in the system.

And I think there's a few things that spring to mind there, Dave, to be honest, in terms of people's style, we need to start taking a strength based approach in terms of, rather than looking at what people aren't very good at because of whatever reason and that might be cultural, it might be the way your brain works, it might be that you're neurodivergent and something doesn't come naturally to you.

Let's look at what people are good at, what are their strengths and let's focus on that and develop that rather than trying to change what we believe is the right way of doing things.

Things.

And I think what immediately came to mind when you started talking then was longevity.

So as a human race we are living longer and therefore we're going to need to work longer.

And therefore for the first time probably ever in history of business, we're going to have multi generations all working together with very different expectations of work.

And there's a lot of senior leaders that are probably our age ish that have an opinion on what work ethic is, for example.

And you know, you have younger generations coming through that perhaps have started work during the lockdown and the pandemic.

So they've never known anything other than working at home and working in a hybrid way.

And now organizations are saying no, we want everyone back in the office five days a week.

And they're saying, no, I don't, I've got a better, I've got a good work life balance, I don't want that.

Or they're saying, my hobbies include me traveling a lot, so I'd like to work part time because I typically go traveling to clim or you know, whatever it might be at the weekend.

And I guess there's probably leaders that are from our generation that are thinking, well that's not okay.

You know, you've got to prioritise work first.

And I think the younger generations are saying no, I value my life outside of work and just that working relationship with, you know, and obviously, you know, we're generalizing quite a lot there.

Everyone has their own way of doing things.

But I think it will be interesting and it's.

We should be challenging ourselves.

Not that what we know is right, but really stopping and listening and thinking actually it might be us that needs to tweak a bit here, not the younger generation coming in.

It definitely is.

I think if you look at some of the research and stats around employee engagement, well being and particularly burnout in the workplace, if you look at inclusivity and some of the stats around that.

There's a lot of people in all sorts of generations that are not happy with the current workplace.

Productivity obviously is another one you hear all the time.

There's got to be something wrong with our system when the system is driving loads of negative stats around those areas.

Yeah, it can't be that all the people are the wrong people in the wrong jobs.

It can't be.

So I think you're right and I think there are a lot of people certainly in my age group that have got tired and burnt out from working in larger organizations and want a different way of life.

So I take your point.

Tasha who works for us is in her 20s, she is in a different age group to me and probably sees the world in a very different way to me and that's fine.

But actually we are trying to adapt to that modern way.

I'm not saying we get it right all the time.

You won't get it right all the time.

And there's only, there's depending on your business and what your clients want.

There's only so much you can.

Of course, yeah, but we certainly have a very flexible way of working.

Tasha Bennett starts in that, you know, she works from home permanently.

We have ways of communicating so that we make sure we get messages across.

We have very clear priorities so people know what they're expected to deliver.

And quite frankly I don't care what hour she works as long as she delivers for me.

And that's back to that strength based approach and how you managing and leading people.

Because actually there aren't many job that you can't measure based on an output or a quality.

You know, it's not about presenteeism and you know, clocking on.

There's lots of software now, isn't there, that's monitoring when people are logging on.

And I just think you're building mistrust in your organization and I think we've lost.

I do agree.

I love being in the same place as people and I think there's real value in that human connection.

A lot of the work I do is about having conversations and meaningful conversations and that you do benefit from being in the same place to start those conversations.

But I think organizations are struggling to articulate why they want people to come back together, you know, so that more casual building relationships with your colleagues.

Actually why aren't organizations saying right, we've got fully flexible working but four times a year we are all going to come together in the same place and build those relationships and talk about how important that is in the workplace rather than perhaps previously.

It just happened by accident.

It just happened because we might be stood making a coffee together and get chatting and find out we've got something in common.

Or you've been to an event at the weekend and I'm curious to find out more about that.

And then just by having those conversations and finding out a little bit more about someone else creates a better bond, a better human connection.

And that's not.

Sometimes the best connections are with people who are different from you because you get curious about, well, I wonder what that's like.

Or something that's a bit different to what you've experienced, increases your understanding and therefore makes you a bit more tolerant, maybe, or a bit more accepting when you hear or see different things from other people.

I know from the work that we've done over the last few years, particularly with senior exec teams, but also at some of the lower levels where we've actually had people in a room, you know, face to face, doing some really important strategic thinking and some problem solving, articulating what the future's going to look like.

Time and time again, people have said to me, we couldn't have done that.

No.

Remotely.

We needed to be in the room together.

Yeah.

And actually we're glad that we were so that there are times when some of the more transactional stuff you can do remotely, but there is some stuff actually which is more transformational.

You do need to get together.

Human beings connect, don't they?

Yes.

And collaborate.

That's where they bring their best work.

Hence our model is called Connecting Leadership.

There's a reason for it.

So going back to your growing up in Birmingham, because you said to me that you class yourself as an introvert.

Yes.

Yeah.

Traditional working class family, obviously, as you said, a woman going into business now, I haven't experienced what that's like.

You have.

What are the experiences that you've had that have shaped the way that you now see leadership?

And this topic that you're really passionate about.

So I think.

So if we go to the introvert thing first, I'd say I'm probably borderline.

The way I know I'm a true introvert is that when I've been around people all day, even if I've had an amazing time, I just need to go home and be quiet and lie down in a dark corner.

Exhausts me.

So some people get energy from being around people and I do in the moment, but later on in that day I'm like, oh.

And I've had to over decades practice at that, you know, So a lot of people will say, oh, you look really confident, though, and you're good at making small talk.

And you think, well, I've just trained myself to do that.

Yeah.

But I think particularly from an inclusion perspective and looking at it from a woman progressing in a corporate career I'm used to as a woman growing up or a young girl growing up in Birmingham, I'm used to the catcalling or to the comments that would be called out across, you know, from the scaffolding builder side.

And being an introvert, my automatic reaction was just head down, walk a bit quicker, ignore them and they might go away.

And then, you know, the small examples.

Now, now I work in diversity and inclusion.

Of course, you look back on your life and you think about things that have happened.

And I remember looking for a job and my dad at the time, he's not with us anymore, unfortunately, but he worked in HR and Health and Safety and I remember reading out from the Evening Mail on a Thursday night because that's how we used to look for jobs back in the day.

And there was a maternity cover.

And remember him getting annoyed that jobs were being held open and basically saying to me, don't apply for that.

I don't think it's right that we should hold women's jobs open now.

I love him to pieces and miss him dearly, but, you know, that's the environment I was brought up in with those sorts of views.

And you don't know it's not your view until you start talking to other people or researching and thinking, oh, actually, I'm not sure I agree with that.

I think, you know, I think this is.

But I think our views can evolve, can't they?

Because when I went into the world of work, there's some things that were said and done that you certainly weren't considered to be acceptable.

Now, I'm not saying they were acceptable then, but there were some things that were tolerated.

But I think you have to.

Society needs to evolve and you need to evolve with it.

And certainly, as you said, life experience will change your mind on things.

So I've got two young girls of 10 and 12 years old.

There's no doubt that having my kids and they're being girls has changed the way I think about some of this stuff in the last 15 years.

There's no doubt.

And so it should.

And that's great because you're evolving as a human being.

So I think.

And I think that's where actually some of the conversations around Diversity and inclusion get it wrong is it can be very black and white.

There's not so much nuance.

And we need to have these nuanced conversations.

We need to help people learn and evolve.

And that doesn't happen in a flick of a switch.

It happens one conversation at a time, doesn't it?

Definitely.

And certainly, you know, one of the things I always encourage people to do.

And so, you know, one of the workshops that I run is based around conversation cards.

So I've got these diversity rocks, conversation cards that prompt certain questions.

And you're almost.

We mentioned earlier about that getting people together in a safe space, you're creating that psychological safety quite quickly and allowing people to ask questions or say things that they perhaps wouldn't because they're reading it out from a card and then that you've given them permission to ask questions, to be curious to talk about it.

And.

And that just builds human connection.

You know, you get.

One of the big things that frustrates me is when people are sharing experiences and others aren't believing them.

Yeah.

Because they've never experienced it themselves and they can't quite believe it to be true.

Before we get into.

I mean, I want to talk to you about diversity rocks because I know I've experienced a little bit of your diversity rocks and I thought it was great.

Before we get to that, this title, inclusive leadership, what does that mean to you?

Based on your life experience and the work you now do, what does inclusive leadership mean to you and why does the world need it?

So to me, the ultimate goal is for everybody, both at work and in society, to feel like they belong.

Okay, so to walk out the house in the morning or log onto the computer in the morning and just be able to be your true, authentic self at work without having to hide anything or mask anything.

Yeah.

And I think we will only get to that point if leaders are cognizant of the fact that they will probably have to display different behaviors and to take actions to enable that environment.

And what behaviours do you.

If you think about, if we could build right now here the ideal inclusive leader, what attributes and behaviors would you want to see in that person?

So the first thing I would say is get to know your people on an individual level.

So the more, you know, individuals, are they introverted, are they extroverted?

Maybe from an ethnicity point of view, what's their background?

What have their experiences been in the past?

Maybe from a neurodivergent perspective, have they got specific areas that they've would need some support in or certain things that they find more of a challenge than others, but everyone's going to be different.

So I was running a workshop last week because it was Neurodiversity Awareness Week, and kept saying to the workshop, once you've met one autistic person, you've met one on one autistic person.

Yes.

Yeah.

So we should never assume, oh, well, I've worked with a young black lad before, and therefore I know the issues that young black people face.

Yeah, no, you don't.

You know the issue one young black person face.

And I think, particularly now, over the last few years, diversity has been demonized a little bit.

I think we've got terms like woke coming through.

Yeah, I agree.

And I think managers are scared to have those conversations because they just worry about saying the wrong thing.

And so my kind of perfect picture of an inclusive leader would be somebody that can create the relationship and then create that environment where they can have that conversation and to be curious.

And actually, it might be really uncomfortable for them, but unless they start having the conversations and asking the questions, they're never going to really know and understand what each of their team members needs to get the best out of them.

It's really funny.

As you were talking then I was listening to you.

Three words came to mind.

Connection, curiosity and courage.

Yes.

We need leaders that collaborate and know that connection is important, that are curious, genuinely curious.

Stop using what you think you know and all the assumptions you've got in your head.

And courage.

I think you're right.

Having the courage to just have some conversations.

If you get it wrong, you get it wrong.

Yeah.

There's a thing called apologizing.

It can be quite helpful.

But actually, we're not going to get this right all the time, are we?

No.

And I'm sure we can all think of examples where we have said the wrong thing or said something a bit clumsy.

And you don't do it twice, do you?

You know, and I think, you know, whatever I say to people is I've genuinely never come across anyone that if you approach it in the right way and you are curious and you're asking for the right reasons to get to know somebody, that if you stumble or you say the wrong thing, you know, and they correct you, just apologize and move on.

I'm so sorry.

That wasn't my intent.

And then move on.

What some people do then try and get defensive.

Oh, well, I was told once, or, you know, I thought it was okay to say this.

And then it all becomes about them and not about the other person that they're trying to actually find something out about.

I believe, I'm sure you probably do as well, that most leaders have the right intention.

Yes.

So if most leaders have got the right intentions, why do so many leaders still struggle with creating true inclusion?

What's the barrier?

What's the blockage that's stopping them?

Because I don't think there's people out there trying to do the wrong thing.

No, not many people.

In fact, I don't think I've ever met anyone that's got up in the morning and thought, I'm going to set out to be horrible to people today or to discriminate.

I can show you a couple.

But no, you're right, you're right, but.

It'S, I think for me, it's about how important it is to you in that.

And I think we're never perfect, are we?

No.

I'm a great believer in you learn something new every day, single day.

And I think if you've got the interest, if you've got the interest in learning about people, and it might not even be about diversity, it might just be about people.

And you might just think, I just really want to get to know the people I'm working with on a deeper level.

And if that happens to be a conversation about their religion or their background or their disability, say, for example, then that includes diversity as well.

It might also be about their hobbies and interests, you know, which sometimes is linked.

So if I think about the amount of meetings I've been where I've had to sit and listen to 10 minutes worth of football talk and thought, this means nothing to me, and I'm in a room with 10 blokes.

Not always, you know, there's obviously women who are really into football as well, but nobody stops to think, do you know what?

Liz doesn't really like any sport whatsoever, but she likes music.

So maybe one of the meetings we could sit and talk about music instead.

And it's that sort of thing to me, that makes a difference in a leader is spotting that.

Not all the time, not saying, never talk, talk about it, but reading the room, reading the group of people and thinking, actually, you know, that person is an introvert.

Or maybe they're from a culture where they would only speak in a formal meeting if they were invited to speak.

And therefore an inclusive leader would know that because they know the individual and they would say, oh, have you got anything you'd like to add to the conversation?

And they don't have to do that to Everybody, because they've got to know their team and they know what's going to work for different people.

So what you're talking about there is the essence of emotional intelligence.

Yes.

So we need leaders that develop better emotional intelligence because there's four key facets.

Then there is self awareness because you can't change what you're not aware of now by, as you said, understanding what your strengths are, understanding where maybe you're not as strong and uncovering your blind spots.

If you build your levels of self awareness, that's going to be helpful.

You need to use that information to self manage better.

So that's the self side of it.

But there's also the other people side of it, which is social awareness.

How well do you read the room?

How well do you read the political currents that are going through the environments that you're living and working and then using that awareness to build relationships more effectively, even with people?

Maybe that wouldn't be a best make down the pub.

Doesn't matter.

You can still build effective working relationships with people.

So that's what you're talking about, isn't it?

Absolutely.

And I think there's a big element for me about teaching yourself.

There is so much resource out there.

We very often back to this focus on the person rather than the system.

We quite often look to minority or underrepresented people to teach and that's really powerful.

And I think learning from other people's lived experience is an important thing to do.

But don't always go to that person.

You know, listen to a podcast, watch something on YouTube, find a TV program, you know, whatever it is, read a book if you get curious or you don't understand something.

There will be stuff out there that you can self educate.

Rather than going to that one person and saying, oh well, you know, you're in a wheelchair, can you talk to me about everything that it might mean to be disabled in today's society?

And very often, if you think about it, people who've had a disadvantage or are underrepresented have usually had a tougher time than others in getting to where they're getting to and then for us to burden them with teaching us.

And it happens a lot with resource groups, diversity resource groups within companies.

I distinctly remember one organization and we'd got a kind of mid level manager, female, black, and she was a single mother and we asked her to lead our ethnicity network and then realised a year later, gosh, as if this woman hasn't got enough going on, then we've asked her to add.

And they're always side of the desk jobs and, you know, people are passionate and people don't mind doing it, but you kind of think, what support are we giving her actually?

Are we giving her enough support?

Are we taking some of the stuff off her to enable her to do this piece of work?

Or have we just literally added another burden onto what's already quite a complex life for her?

I think you made one of the points you made there about getting your information from a variety of sources.

I remember a few years back, one of our clients, one of the owners of the business, was going through some testing for neurodiversity.

Yeah.

And found.

And actually found out that she was neurodiverse, which answered a whole lot of questions from the previous, you know, however many years she'd been alive.

But because they were a good client of ours and because I was working with her quite closely, I went away and did a bit of research on my own.

Not just speaking to her to understand her perspective, but, you know, how do you interact with people that are neurodiverse?

Because I'm not, as far as I know.

And it made that point exactly that every neurodiverse person is different.

There is no.

There is no one size fits all.

And I guess you could say that about all human beings.

Every human being is different.

Not all women are the same, not all men are the same.

So I think that's a really important point about.

Yeah, go and get your.

Your information from a variety of sources.

Don't just rely on one source.

Yeah.

Educate yourself.

And I think, yeah, what you've touched on there, which I talk about a lot, is the difference between group identity and individual identity.

So, you know, we have to acknowledge there are things that have happened in the past that are not good things, that are really bad things that have happened to specific groups.

Groups because of the colour of their skin, because of their gender, because of their ability or disability.

We shouldn't pretend that that hasn't happened.

We need to keep talking about it to make sure it doesn't happen again.

But then we need to also recognize that from an individual's perspective, not to use a bias or a stereotype to say because they've come from a particular group, they must act in a certain way or that, that.

Or that the, the typical traits that might be associated with that group must apply to everybody in that group.

Because actually, you know, everybody is an individual in their own right.

And there's a lot of talk over the last few years about intersectionality, you know, so there are lots of people that have a number of different characteristics and therefore are not defined by their gender, because actually it might be their gender and their race.

And the complexity of both of those things has given them additional issues that perhaps other people of the same gender or the same race might not have faced.

And that makes my point about these are very nuanced issues.

It's not black and white, is it?

And we need to have nuanced conversation, moving the conversation a little bit, underpinning what we call inclusive leadership.

And this idea of creating belonging, which I totally agree with you on, are some key principles.

Diversity, equality, equity, and inclusion.

And can we just be clear what we mean by those terms?

Because they sometimes get misunderstood.

So let's start with diversity.

What does that mean to you?

So diversity means that everybody is different.

So diversity, you know, the law gives us nine protected characteristics.

So it talks about sexual orientation, race, gender, marital status, religion, etc.

I go much wider than that.

I go by height, I go by weight, I go by people with piercings or people who have tattoos, you know, so everyone is a different person.

And therefore diversity means.

Means there are lots of different people.

I think then when you get onto some of the other terms.

So equality, for example, is a phrase that, you know, came in through legislation and is something you still hear talked about.

But equality actually just means treating everybody the same.

Everyone should have an equal opportunity.

Yeah.

But actually not everyone needs exactly the same level of support because people are coming from different places.

So the term that's more frequently used now is equity.

So equity is effectively you get the support that you need.

Yeah.

So there's a diagram that I'm sure many of your listeners have seen where there's people watching a baseball game over a fence.

You know, equality would be giving them all a box to stand on, but somebody still can't see over the fence.

Equity would be.

Actually, that person needs three boxes to stand on.

And then, of course, we move through to actually a true sense of inclusion and belonging is looking.

Looking at the root cause in the first place.

What?

You know, let's take the fence away.

Because actually, equity is great because it gives people the support they need, but it's still signaling to everybody that you need some support of some variety, you know, so we look.

So if you take dyslexia, for example, there's lots of evidence that dyslexic people struggle to read black writing on white paper.

And especially if there's a lot of white space on the paper.

And so very Often schools or training providers will have different colours of paper, not pastel colours.

Maybe what you don't want to do is go around your classroom or your training course and say, here's your handout, here's your handout, here's your special handout.

You know, that's equity, because you recognize somebody needs something different, so it's good in one respect.

But how rubbish does that person then?

You know, you've singled them out.

A more inclusive approach to make everyone feel that they belong would be to say, you know, here's a selection of handouts.

Take the one that works best for you.

Yeah.

And that then, because actually what we find is when we're providing alternatives or reasonable adjustments in the workplace, very often they benefit more than the person that you're doing it for in the first place, because there are lots of people that think, actually I'd find that easier.

And I haven't got a severity of a condition like perhaps the other person.

But you know, what if somebody comes and asks you for something that would make their work life easier?

Why, if it's reasonable and it's not going to cost you very much and very often it doesn't cost you anything, why wouldn't you consider it?

And that's back to that.

Believing people.

Well, I mean, you talk about dyslexia.

My daughter, who's 10 or nearly 11 now, has just been diagnosed with dyslexia.

We're not surprised.

We kind of saw it coming, I think.

But what's interesting now, sort of diving into what this actually means and what sometimes dyslexic people struggle with and everyone, again, is slightly different.

It's not every dyslexic person is the same.

One of the things I've realized, apart from those practical things that you were talking about, is some of the other cognitive challenges that it brings and actually how you have to parent them differently.

So there are some nuances to how you parent somebody and it's no different to leading somebody inside a business, that you have to adjust your approach to get the best out of that person.

So I think we just have to adjust, don't we?

And I like the example you gave that.

Rather than just give them a special bit of paper with colours on, which I think is what sometimes happens, just give them a choice, give everybody a choice.

And I think in a workplace setting.

So I used to work at an organisation and it wasn't probably until 12 months after I'd known this one director and he didn't tell me, somebody else told Me, he was dyslexic.

And then it suddenly made sense.

We have these formal meetings every month and the papers were supposed to be distributed five days before the meeting so people could pre read them.

And it was such a bugbear of his.

It was something because very often they were late and you'd be running into the meeting, half, you know, scanning the papers.

But it was a real thing for him.

And then I found out 12 months later he was dyslexic and suddenly that clocks into place and he didn't want people to know he was dyslexic.

He'd got to a really senior level in the org, but he needed more time.

He couldn't just sit on the fly and read those papers because he needed to sit in an environment that was suitable for him and get it on whatever screens work for him to be able to read and make his notes ahead of the meeting.

So it's sometimes, you know, we look at things and don't realize why they're in play.

And that's back to that inclusive leader.

If you know the people that are around you and what their needs are, you as a leader can help them, can't you?

By saying no, the papers do need to come out.

That's really important without pointing it towards because of X, Y and Z.

So I'd like to pick up your point about conversations and the importance of having conversations that really matter.

And let's do that in the context of your diversity rocks.

Yeah, yeah.

Idea.

Because I said I came to a workshop that you ran recently with these diversity rocks kind cards and there were some really interesting conversations happening that I'd not necessarily seen done that way before.

So just talk to us about that, your idea behind it, and why you think this is a great way of spreading the message that you're talking about today.

So the science behind it.

Let's start with the science behind it is actually people learn in different ways.

But very often things resonate more with people when they've had an actual conversation and it's formed part of a story.

Yeah.

So there's a part of the brain called the hippocampus, which I think is fabulous.

And there was a university in California that did this study that proved that storytelling helped aid memory.

Yeah.

So.

And I think we all know and we hear a lot, don't we, about leadership and storytelling.

And so my kind of theory or my take on that with diversity rocks is as we start asking the questions on the cards, people will start sharing stories and it might be Their story.

Or it might be actually my name, niece.

Yeah, this happened.

Or my friend or I used to work with somebody and they start sharing things and sometimes they're big things and sometimes they're little things, but it's a human perspective and that resonates with people in the room.

And because we've set that psychological safety really quickly up front and we've said today's the day to be curious, ask the questions, explore the topics, you know, be polite, be constructive.

But if you've always thought, oh, I think people are being a bit over sensitive of that topic and it comes up, delve into it, let's have those conversations.

And then that really resonates with people a lot more.

And also you end up going down slightly different paths every time.

Because what we're doing is asking a question.

There's no fixed answer.

No.

So it needs some guidance.

Yes, of course, you know, because very often delegates will look and say, well, what is the right answer?

Or what experiences have you had?

Or is that the an okay thing to say?

But very often, you know, no two conversations are the same.

So when I've run workshops, even the exactly the same card will go off on lots of different directions.

Directions.

And there's also something about physically holding something.

So there's this piece when I first developed them, it was very much with a, let's physically get people in a room and have a conversation.

And the science behind when you're holding something, you tend to speak more freely.

Okay.

So if you kind of think back, so a lot of indigenous people, for example, would have things called talking circles.

Right.

Where they would sit in a circle and they would talk about issues that affect faced, you know, their group and they have an item and whoever's holding the item, it's their permission or their turn to talk.

So there was something about, you know, if you just picture a playing card, somebody's holding it and they're talking about something and they're not sure and they're moving it around in the hand and they're moving, you know, it's a bit like that with the fidget toys, you know, that we see a lot of people tend to open up more when they're doing stuff when they're holding something.

So I kind of brought all these different elements together and like I said earlier, goes far beyond protected characteristics.

So I was with an executive team before Christmas, good few months ago now.

We spent 40 minutes talking about tattoos in the workplace.

And I know, and this is an organization that has field based workers, predominantly MALE and you know, this was an executive team that were all committed to becoming an inclusive employer and wanted to be inclusive and really wanted to understand it.

And yet by the end of the 14th minutes it was very clear they all had a slightly different view on, oh well, it might be okay for somebody who's out in the field doing a manual job, but what if it was the receptionist at your head office that maybe had tattoos coming up their neck or tattoos that were visible?

Oh, well, that might be a bit different.

Okay, well why is it different?

You know, and they're just.

And then it just creates a conversation and you know, there might not be an answer or there might be a conclusion.

Well, actually, you know, it's your organization.

You might decide what is and isn't appropriate.

But at least they thought about it from different perspectives and you'd got different people's views adding into that conversation.

I think the point you make there is really important, is for a lot of these things there isn't a right or wrong answer.

There's probably a right answer for your organisation and you come up with whatever policy, whatever decision you need to make for your organization, providing it's been based on a good robust conversation.

Because sometimes these things are just imposed on people without conversation and then they kick against it.

Well, that's a surprise, isn't it?

Back to the conversation.

But back to the point.

We were saying, saying before about people coming back into the office, people are kicking against it because nobody's articulating why they want people to come back into the office.

And if you don't give people a good reason, then they are going to push back against it.

I think the other thing is as well, we, we should always evolve, develop, learn.

You know, you might make one decision one day and six months later think that wasn't the right decision.

Let's tweak it a little bit.

Yeah.

So just because you make a decision or a, you know, form an opinion right now on what might be a appropriate.

Things change, don't they?

Things definitely change.

Yeah, absolutely they do.

So, Liz, let's talk about the workshop that we're running at Stanbrook Abbey in June.

It's going to be a sort of two pronged attack.

Rich and I in the morning are going to be talking about cognitive diversity with a tool that we use a lot called Whole Brain thinking.

We've got a really fun interactive session in the morning to understand what is cognitive diversity and how does it impact decision making, communication and various other aspects of leadership.

So that should be a really fun, insightful session where we start to value different modes of thinking, different ways of seeing the world.

And then in the afternoon, you're going to be taking us on a diversity rocks journey.

Yes.

Yeah, I am.

So what do you expect people to take from that?

What sort of people do you want to see coming?

Anyone, first of all, I think anyone can come along.

What I really like about the day we've put together is the morning session will really teach.

Teach us some of the science behind how the brain works.

And in the afternoon we will look at diversity in terms of, you know, different characteristics, different where people have come from.

But then we'll quite quickly get into the conversations about the impact that that's had.

And of course, people's experiences very often are led by how their brain works or how the brain of another person that has said or behaved in a certain way has impacted them.

So I think it will be quite powerful to put those two together and I think it will be a really interactive day because diversity rocks.

Conversation cards are exactly that.

It's about having a conversation.

There's not slides to go through, there's not lots of information to try and remember.

Because the whole point is you are learning from the others in the room.

You are learning and asking questions and therefore understanding different people's perspectives, which then you know, the output of that is you go away with a deeper understanding, with more empathy, with a self reflection on perhaps biases that you have.

You know, we all have them.

There's nothing to feel bad about.

No, you know, you know what you know, don't you?

Until somebody tells you something.

There's.

There's a great quote by Maya Angelou who says, you know, you should always learn and try and do better.

And then when you do learn more, you should do better, better, you know, so it's that constant flow of as soon as you know something new makes you a better person, hopefully makes environments nicer for everyone else.

Absolutely.

Around you.

So I think what we're saying is we want leaders of all persuasions to come to the workshop.

We want them to bring those three C's with them.

Yes.

Do you want to connect more effectively with your people?

Because that's what the day's about.

Do you want to learn how to use your natural curiosity highly effectively?

That's what the day is about.

And also to give you some courage to actually have these conversations.

And that's quite powerful.

The feedback I've had from the workshops, we're giving people permission right up front to talk about what Words did you used to hear when you were at school that you don't hear anymore?

Or why was that word okay back then and it's not okay now?

And all those things.

The sad thing, I think, is because of the way, because of the demonization of diversity and inclusion discussions, people are backing out of the conversation.

Yeah.

Because they just genuinely don't want to say the wrong thing.

And the language changes so much.

You know, every time I do a workshop, I learn something new.

Somebody tells me a new word or phrase or something that I've never heard before, and, you know, this is my bread and butter.

This is what I live and breathe every day.

It changes quickly.

And unless you keep talking about it, you're not going to keep up to date with it.

Well, you know what kids are like.

My kids are teaching me new words all the time because they've got new words for stuff that we use.

Used to use different phrases for.

So apparently preppy is a word I've learned a lot about recently.

What you have to be careful is that they're not teaching you things and telling you the wrong meaning.

Well, they might be.

Yeah.

But they also might think I'm a bit of a dinosaur because I don't understand what it means.

And I think there's an important point there.

Let's not just wallow in what we know.

Let's start to be curious about what we don't know.

I think it's really important.

So where can people sign up and get involved in the workshop?

Liz, from your perspective.

So the event is live on Eventbrite.

Yeah.

So have a look on the Orange Orchid website if you want to find out more.

Or indeed the Diversity Rocks website.

Okay.

Diversityrocks.co.uk.

so I'll put the information on there and I'm guessing when the podcast goes out, Dave, we can put a link, a link to the event in the comments.

We certainly will put it on the social media and we will be posting on LinkedIn.

I'm sure you will be as well.

So find Liz on LinkedIn.

Yeah.

Liz Crutchley.

Liz Crutchley, yeah.

Or Orange Orchid UK.

Find myself or Rich or Zentano on LinkedIn or our websites, zentanogroup.com, orangeorchid.co.uk.

so, just to wrap up, Liz, final thoughts.

What's the one key takeaway that you'd like listeners to walk away from this podcast with when it comes to inclusive leadership?

If there's one thing they take away from what we've said today.

What will it be?

I would say you don't know everything.

Go find out.

Go be curious and go find out something brilliant.

I guess if I was given to give one tip, just be courageous.

What's the worst that could happen?

Yeah, okay.

Lovely, Liz, thank you so much for today.

Really enjoyed our conversation.

Oh, yeah, me too.

It's a really important topic and I think.

I think leadership is going to change into the right direction.

It might not change as fast as I'd like it to or you'd like it to, but I think we'll get there one day.

So long as we keep learning, Dave.

As long as we keep learning, Liz.

See you soon.

Bye.