Brave Enough to Change Culture: A Conversation with Annie Esler | #15

Welcome to Unleash youh Impact, Unlock Others, a podcast about inspiring leadership. We hope to bring you grounded wisdom, stories from real leaders and leave you feeling inspired. Let's dive in.

So, welcome to Unleash youh Impact, Unlock Others and the Voices of Leadership episode today with my guest, Annie Essler. Now, we are doing another mini series at the moment about breaking the glass ceiling, particularly for women in the workplace.

And last time we were joined by Shirley Gray, we talked about menopause in leadership. Today, Annie is joining me to talk about sexual harassment in the workplace. Now, this is a topic that for me is really close to my heart.

I have a sister who has been in the forest service for many years who was subjected to some quite awful things. She was even featured on the ITV News last year. But I also have two young daughters that will be going into the workplace in the years to come.

So this is a topic that I do care about a lot.

And I know Annie is also passionate about the progress we're making towards gender equality and the remaining barriers that still hold people back and the role of leaders, particularly male allies, in making lasting change. And Annie and I will get into that a bit later.

She'll also be sharing her views on how far we've come, what still needs to be done and how leaders can make meaningful action to support inclusivity. We'll also be discussing Annie's upcoming session with Zentano on breaking the glass ceiling and how you can get involved in those workshops.

So, without any further ado, Annie, welcome.

Hello.

For people listening, just before we get into the topic itself, tell me a bit about your background, your experience, and I'm particularly interested why this topic matters to you so much.

So I have a background in learning and development and I work a lot with leaders across various industries, some of which have been traditionally male industries, so automotive, hospital, hospitality and, yeah, I've worked with them for a number of years. So what I'm hoping to do and why this subject matters so much to me, I think is because I'm also a mum, too.

I have three children, one daughter and two boys. So I'm very passionate about them and the workplace that they're trying to be in.

And I'm also passionate about trying to support leaders in creating these environments to make it more equal for everybody and make sure that we are not just talking about culture, but we're really actively trying to create these inclusive cultures that's important for everyone.

I know you work with some premium brands like Mercedes Benz and Savills and Jaguar Land Rover, Disney World. I understand as well. I mean are these companies doing lots of training on this topic?

Yeah, they do take it very seriously.

But what I see is that it's actually the leaders and although they can have, you know, it's that leadership within the business that really makes sure those things happen in the day to day.

And that's what's really key I think about leadership is that the company can have those values, they can set up everything in place to make sure that that happens. But really leaders have a hu role in making sure that the culture is there and that people do feel supported in the day to day environment.

Yeah.

And I want to get into that with you today that I think it's the cultural piece which I'm really interested in so so much the HR policies, although that plays a part. But I'm really interested in the cultural side of this.

Before we get into that, have you got any stats you can share with us about the size of the problem? I mean I'm guessing that some harassment goes unreported. That's probably true. Can you give us a sense of the size of the problem?

Yeah, it's a big one really I think and it's often hiding in plain sight. I think that's the thing we have to really recognise.

There's been various studies done and I think it only really is the tip of the iceberg really from some of those.

So it's really important that recognize that this is happening everywhere. And we also. The reporting of it is very, very low as well. Lots of different studies in place that we can quote around that. So levels of reporting.

Unison reported in one of their recent surveys that 15% only reported the incident. So if we think there's a third of people experienced it and only 15% of them are then reporting it, there's a huge gap in what's happening.

And I think we all know stories of people who've been through it, but like your sister who've been through it and she was brave enough to come forward. But there's lots of people who aren't quite often they will move business. We're losing talent. People just remain quiet.

And so I think we've got to really recognize that we have to Start a conversation to make sure we can change that.

Yeah.

And going back to the topic of this, which is, you know, breaking the glass ceiling and I think Shirley made this point when we were talking about menopause in leadership last time, is that, you know, menopause can start quite young for women. It can start at late 30s, early 40s for everybody obviously, but it can do.

But then, you know, with people working longer now, the state pension I think is now 67. So actually if we just point. She was making. Right, people off.

Yeah, yeah.

And then. But obviously they've still got talent and ability to add in the workplace.

And again, if we put people off working in our businesses because we don't deal with these issues, we're losing a lot of really good talent, aren't we? You don't want to be losing that talent.

Yeah, huge pool of talent there. And that more recent poll in 23 that was published by the TUC reported that three in five people had experienced sexual harassment.

But that rises to almost 2/3 of women aged between 25 and 34.

So these are big statistics and they're all quite scary really in a lot of ways for leaders to actually recognize that there's a huge part of the talent base is being subjected to this. So we've got to encourage.

I think the other thing to think about is that Gen Z are becoming very careful about the companies they align themselves with and they want companies that are demonstrating those values that they want to work for. Companies that align for them. Yeah.

So I think that that young generation, we've got a bit of a position where we have these young people coming in at the moment into the workplace who absolutely know what type of companies they want to work for and what values they demand in their day to day working environment. And then we've got older generations maybe where some of these behaviours were tolerated.

And so we've got to find a way to get them to work together so that we can really start to address this and have conversations about it, to change maybe what's happened before.

I think one of the things that happened last year when my sister's case was on the ITV news and she, you know, she was forced to go down that route because she wasn't being taken seriously enough. Yeah, internally, internally. So obviously it was quite brave for her to do that, I can tell you.

It caused her a lot of, you know, anguish and grief to have to go down that road. But she felt that she had to take a stand. But what's really interesting afterwards how Many. Not just women either.

How many people in the Forest Service came out afterwards in support of her, sending her messages? And actually how many other, mainly women, I think, then started reporting similar cases and started speaking up?

So, yeah, it is about creating a dialogue, isn't it? And having some male and female allies that can actually change the way that we run this stuff in the workplace.

Most people want it to be like that. Most people are good people. And I think that's that the headlines and the noise can. Can make you think it's quite different.

But actually, we've got to remember most of us are good people who want to, you know, don't want people to be treated in a way that isn't respectful. They want to work in an environment that everybody feels safe. We spend time more with the people we work with sometimes than we do at home.

And so we really want to care and look after the people we're with. And I think the majority are those people. But we maybe don't have the loudest voices. So we have to start to support each other and speak.

Because, as you said, you know, people, when they're going through a case like this, if they have been brave enough to bring it forward, often feel a huge amount of stress and anxiety. They don't feel empowered. They're very worried about the rest of their colleagues and how that looks to them. You know, what does it look like?

And so people's response is really important. And I think that's something that we all have the capability to get involved with, to be able to support and speak up.

Definitely. So let's define the problem.

Now, there's a legal definition for sexual harassment, which is defined as any unwelcome conduct, comment, gestures, or physical contact of a sexual nature that creates a hostile or intimidating work environment. So that's the legal definition. But what does actual sexual harassment look like in a modern workplace? I'd imagine some of this is quite subtle.

So do you want to just explain to us what does that look like in the modern workplace?

So it's very much about the effect it has on that person. So what one person finds offensive, somebody else may not. And that's what's really difficult.

That's where I think people get tied up and why they don't speak because they're worried about getting it wrong. So it's about taking responsibility for your actions, your words, your intentions, and how you make people feel.

And I think when we're all doing it in that way, we're much more likely to get it right. And I think that's what's important is to.

To really be conscious about how we are impacting the people around us and how other people's behaviors are impacting them.

So it's about being aware of those subtle comments, being aware of things that make people feel uncomfortable, and calling out a lot of the time, being able to speak up and say it.

You know, we've all maybe been in a situation where somebody has said something that's just been a bit odd or weird or strange, and everybody feels uncomfortable about it, but maybe nobody says anything in that moment. And I know myself, that's happened to me.

And afterwards you think, oh, I could have said this, or maybe I should have said that, and if only I'd had the time at that moment to speak up. And I think that's the bit that's difficult, isn't it? We all know what it is. It's a bit like comedy.

When you see comedy from the 80s or the 70s, it's not okay anymore. It's not funny anymore. Some of the things that we see and that we tolerated at that time, we know better now.

So it's about calling out those things that just make people uncomfortable are just no longer appropriate to see in a work environment or any environment, really.

Do you think there are people, though, who've been in the workplace a number of years?

Someone of my age group probably has seen quite different eras in the workplace where, as you said, some things that used to be deemed okay certainly wouldn't be deemed okay now is how do people know what's okay and what's not okay? I guess that for some people, that's going to be a challenge. They want to do the right thing.

They don't want to be seen as somebody who is sexually harassing anybody, but actually don't understand where the line is between banter and having a bit of fun and something which is actually causing offense.

Yeah, it's really. It's a really personal thing, isn't it?

It's a really personal thing as to how you navigate that, what the culture is like, what your relationship is with that person. You know, somebody putting your hand on my shoulder for somebody might not be okay.

And in other situations, it is quite difficult to define in a lot of ways. And I think it's just been really honest.

People have to be really honest with their self, because even those people who maybe say they don't know or they're not sure or they probably do know, they probably do know that it was a bit over the line or they shouldn't have stood that close or they should, you know, whatever it is.

I think if you really question we all when we're making somebody else uncomfortable, I think a lot of the time, and I think it's just taking that moment to have responsibility for how you're behaving and what you're doing, how you're conducting yourself in the day to day. Would you be comfortable saying in front of your grandma, would you be, do you know, would you say in front of your daughter those sort of things?

And I think that's, that can be sometimes a bit of a way to realize actually. Is, is that appropriate and probably not. Would I, would I text?

Would I like my boss to see that, that WhatsApp message that I've just sent somebody else? Probably not. Would I be comfortable sitting down and having a HR discussion about what I've just said? Probably not.

So maybe if we're not sure, don't.

Say it, don't say it, don't say it or don't do it. They say in Ireland, say nothing till you hear more. And I think that's sometimes a good, good piece of advice.

So does it manifest itself differently at different levels in a workplace? So obviously there's the entry level into a business, there's the more senior leadership. Does this look different at different levels?

There's quite a lot sometimes of cases where it's positional power that can be the problem.

So the person who is perpetrating or being accused of sexual harassment in the workplace quite often has a positional power over the other person and that can make it difficult and that can. Obviously that other person can feel quite disempowered and feel afraid to speak up or that they don't have the support if they do.

So it can quite often be somebody more senior, but not always.

Not always.

And you alluded that when it happened to you in the past, when something has been said to you that really wasn't okay, you may not have actually called it out at the time. What causes that to happen?

I think it's really complex, isn't it? I think when I think back about it now I'm older, maybe I have more experience now, so maybe I would have spoken up sooner in that situation.

And I think also there's a great amount of shame sometimes because there's questions as to why it's happening, what's the right thing to do. If I make that accusation, am I going to come out in a less favourable way than when I started? What are my peers going to consider.

And there has been instances where, you know, peers have treated people quite differently because they've thought in some way they're complicit to that behavior. And so I think it's all of those things are going through your mind at that time. And in that moment, there's quite a lot.

A lot of the time it's easier just to laugh along or go along with that behavior. And this is why the advocates are so important, because they can speak up and change that at that time.

But I think what we want to do is have these brief conversations so that, you know, a younger version of me or my daughter or your daughter do feel they can say something at that moment because it isn't acceptable within the culture. And that's the bit I think we really have to focus on, is to try to create those cultures where it is no longer okay to do that.

And so if I do speak up, I'm going to be supported by my colleagues and my line managers in hr.

Well, I want to get onto psychological safety in a minute, and I want to get on to how we have those conversations. But before we do so, just can we understand what is the psychological and career impact on particularly women that are exposed to this?

From your perspective, what is that impact?

I think it's huge. And I think, again, you know, women who find themselves in that environment lose their voice quite often. They won't speak up.

They won't put themselves in positions where they may have to be with that person or challenge that person, even a professional way. They might not put themselves forward to work in certain departments because of certain people.

You know, there's a hole, and quite often they'll just leave the company.

I think that's one of the most common things that happens all of the time, is that people will just move to a different company or get out of that environment. And I think that's the bit we're losing all the time.

So your trajectory of your career can be quite different because you've had to move or you've had to step back, or maybe you don't put yourself in certain positions because you don't want to be seen as being aggressive towards the other person. So I think it can change pathways, it can change careers because of all of these things. I think so.

Not to mention knocking the confidence, you know, I think it can really knock a woman's confidence, and I think it can make you question or any gender, really, but it can make you question your own capabilities, how you come across, you know, so it can start to really put that self doubt, which is only going to have a detrimental effect, I think, on anyone's career.

Well, we don't really want workplaces, do we, where people's self esteem has been eroded away by outdated or poor behaviour, do we? That is the thing we're trying to stop here.

You know, all of the leadership, all of the psychological safety, you know, all of the things we talk about, values, all of the things that create that safe space. We know that people thrive when they feel safe and we know that people thrive when they are valued.

And those things can't be true if somebody feels that they're being sexually harassed in any way. So everybody's going to benefit if this changes.

And it's not just sexual harassment. If you have psychological safety, there's various massive benefits that companies are going to get from that, aren't they?

So why do you think some companies struggle to address this effectively?

I think in some ways it's a can of worms they're maybe afraid to open.

I think that maybe they're Quite often, when there's investigations into cases, if a case has been brought forward of sexual harassment, quite often it opens up a door that you realise there's been a whole lot of tolerated behaviour that's happened for a long, long time and it's come to a point where it's come to a reported incident. So I think a lot of leaders and HR are nervous about opening that door and starting that conversation as to, because of what it might uncover.

But I also think it's about being brave. And I think for leaders to be brave enough to say, okay, let's call out, let's have this conversation. How do we feel? How safe do you feel?

Do you feel you could speak up? Do you feel I would support you? Do you feel, you know, the process, if something like this happens?

And so to create that psychological safety takes a huge amount of brave leadership.

And I think that's the bit that can be difficult because we're all busy dealing with the day to day of everything else that's happening, you know, as a leader.

And so it's almost, you know, to show that empathy, that vulnerability, to create that safe space, I think takes a lot of energy, a lot of focus and a lot. And just to be brave enough to do it, I think can be difficult.

Yeah. I mean, one of the things Rich and I have talked about on this podcast before, and we certainly would talk about it again, is bravery.

I think is if you look at the workplaces we want for the future, where there's a lot more connection. I feel there's a lot of disconnection in the workplace. Disconnection in a number of different ways. Even the focus on driving productivity and output.

And sometimes that gets driven more at the expense of relationship building. And I get. Everyone's busy these days, I get that. But actually that creates disconnection in itself. You have to get.

It's getting the balance right, isn't it? So to get the balance right in all these areas takes a bit of bravery. It takes someone to actually step out and say, actually, this is not right.

We need to do something differently.

Yeah.

And that's what you're talking about here.

And I think when there's what you.

What you're saying about that divisiveness and, you know, we're all going for profit, for example, but this department's working in a separate way to this other department or. And it's. When people are fearful, the separations begin to happen. And when people aren't fearful, they thrive.

Yeah.

When people work together.

And we know that from all the evidence, don't we, that when people work together and the fear isn't there and they're not afraid to fail, and we create those psychologically safe environments where they're able to do that, to be able to try something else, that's when they get creative and innovative and try new things and we actually start to uncover other people's talents because they're free to speak up. And that's when you get brave leadership, I think.

But it takes some work, because it's all about relationships, all about connection in order to do that.

Yeah. And that takes intentional time, doesn't it, to develop those relationships, find out about your people, make sure they're thriving.

As you said, all of that is really important, but it takes intentional time. Going back to your own experience, then.

So do you feel that when you've been exposed to sexual harassment, whether it's been minor or serious, that's affected your career trajectory, it's affected your confidence, it's affected the decisions that you've made in the workplace.

For me, personally, I think it's maybe been easier to be quiet, you know, to stay quiet and not put myself out there? I think that probably changed in. In some ways because there was.

There was circumstances in my case that I felt I'm just going to keep my head down here and just do what I need to do. And so of course, maybe that meant I didn't put myself forward for promotion or I didn't I wasn't, as.

I wasn't shining a light on what I was capable of. Maybe because I was just trying to keep a better, smaller. Yeah, that would have been my personal circumstance.

But what I'm amazed at, and obviously this is an area because I've developed the E Learning course in response to the recent legislation, because, of course, there was the law change back in October. So I've developed this course and began to speak to HR leaders.

And what I've been shocked about is almost every single person who is my age has experienced it.

Yeah.

And that's what's shocking to me, you know, you think so? You know, all of those people being affected in some way or being exposed.

Exposed to it in some way, it's got to have affected who you are and how you behave in the workplace. You know, it can't not.

No, it must. It must do. And I guess it's easy to be wise with hindsight. I get that. And times are changing as well.

So if this happened 10 years ago, they were always a different place 10 years ago.

But with all of that having been said, do you look back and think, I wish I'd done some stuff differently and if so, what would you have done differently?

I do wish I'd done things differently. I wish I'd spoken up more. And I think being a mum of a daughter going into the workplace makes me more determined to make sure she doesn't.

She isn't exposed to those things.

Yeah.

But also for my boys who are going to the workplace, I want them to be advocates and speak up and feel they can, because I think at that time, when I experienced it, I don't think the other men around me would have been able to speak up, to say anything, because the culture wasn't there. So I think, yeah, I think that's what we have to change, is to try.

And the whole standards, the basic standards are much higher than they would have been 10, 15 years ago.

Yeah. Yeah. And so they should be.

So let's talk about creating an environment of psychological safety, because that's obviously the important ingredient here. If we can create an environment where people feel they can speak up, they can be braver, they can give feedback to each other.

And I'm guessing with this, the best way of dealing with this is nipping it in the bud early, not letting it get to the point, like my sister's case, where it's going to end up, you know, a tribunal or something like that. We don't. We don't want to get to that Point do we? We want to nip these things in the Buddha and find a way forward which is right for everybody.

So what's your view on, in terms of all you've learned about business from not just a training route you've done, but obviously the roles you've had in business about creating the right psychological safety environment?

I think it's about doing the right thing. Yeah, a lot of the time it's about doing the right thing all of the time.

You know, making those decisions that, you know, that might not be the easiest thing, it might not be the quickest solution, but it's the right thing to do. So I think it's, it's, it's starting with that. And I think that, you know, we don't talk enough about in leadership is consistency.

And I think that consistency piece is really key here. We have to be consistent in our behavior as a leader. I think we need to be consistent in how we treat people.

We need to be consistent in the conversations we're having in what we tolerate and what we don't tolerate. And when we've got that consistency, then you can really start to drive those standards that will encourage that psychological safety.

And I think it's through, you know, having advocates, not being afraid to have those conversations, asking people their experience, making sure that we're using the opportunities we have to train and inform people, making sure our policies are up to date, making sure maybe we have working groups that can help have those conversations to support those policies, make sure the pathways are there for people to make a complaint if they need to. They know who to speak to, they know what the definition is of sexual harassment and they know what the pathway is if they need to.

And I think as leaders you can really establish an open door policy where people know actually in any circumstance. My first port of call is you.

And I think that's the biggest thing you can do as a leader is to make sure that they know at any point they can speak to you and it's going to be ok. You'll be respected, trusted, it'll be confidential if appropriate. And I think that's what's key.

Yeah, and I guess people in more senior positions, maybe what we need to do is to say, actually the teams that we run, actually if I say anything or do anything that makes any of you feel uncomfortable, I want you to come and tell me. I will not be angry. But actually I need to be given feedback because I think you're right.

I think the point about consistency is really important behavior that is Consistent will start to create the right environment.

Yeah.

Whereas if it's inconsistent, no one knows where they stand.

You don't know where you come from and you can't have psychological safety. People don't know what they're getting all of the time.

Whereas if you're consistent in how you approach it and the same thing, if there's any incidences that happen, how it's dealt with, it's taken seriously, you know, we're shown that we don't. There's a zero tolerance approach here and that that's what we're doing. The legislation now requires that it's reasonable steps.

So you have to demonstrate there's been reasonable steps taken. That's part of what the new legislation has brought. So what are those reasonable steps? You know, what are they?

You know, is it that the person feels they can speak to the line manager in the first place? Is it that there's training being provided for them? Is it that I, I know that my company take a zero approach, zero tolerance approach to this.

You've got to show what those reasonable steps are. And as leaders, we have the chance to do that. I think we have the chance to decide how it goes. It's going to work in our team.

Decide, are women represented? See what, what's stopping them, you know, what has stopped them in the past?

Speaking to them about it and just making it normal to have these conversations so they. Absolutely, everybody knows that that's not going to be tolerated within our culture anymore, or if it has been in the past.

So in terms of actionable solutions, then you may have already covered some of this, but what advice would you give to any woman who's listening to this today, facing challenges like this in the workplace? What would your advice to those women business?

That you're not alone, first of all, and that you have some options. I think that's key because I think it can feel a very lonely place if this is happening to you. So I think to know that you have options and you.

The law is there to support you and I would like to think the majority of companies will absolutely stand by you if you find yourself in that scenario.

Every situation is different, as I said, so sometimes it may be just calling out in the moment, you know, things like asking if the person says something that's not appropriate, even asking them, sorry, could you repeat that? That. Sorry, I didn't quite catch that. Could you repeat it?

It's enough sometimes just to stop that whole conversation beginning and also call it out in a way that actually it's not antagonistic to anybody, but it's calling out the fact that I've heard that, and it's not okay. And usually the person doesn't repeat it back when they realize they've had to have.

Actually, that thought process has to happen before the words come out their mouth. So sometimes that can just dispel it in that moment, if it's not a serious incident.

But I think the first instance is always to speak to the line manager that's appropriate, or if they don't feel comfortable that to go to their HR support or somebody else that they feel comfortable that they can talk to. But it's really important to speak up and make sure that they do empower themselves to do it and know that the support is there around them.

You talked earlier on about the role of allies in the workplace, both men and women, to foster these safe workplaces. So just briefly talk to me about the role of allies and how you see that working.

I think the only way this is going to be successful is it's not divisive.

It can't be where we have, you know, one part of the workplace frightened to speak up or say the wrong thing, and then somebody else, you know, going down a different path and feeling very lonely. It's got to be something we pull together to achieve.

We, as I said before, you know, most people are really respectful and want to do the right thing. We're just afraid of getting it wrong sometimes.

But if we can speak up and make sure everybody's okay with who we work with, support our colleagues, you know, call it out, check in with them. If something's happened that you saw made somebody uncomfortable, call it out in the moment if you can, if you're in a position to do so.

If not, check in on them afterwards. See are they okay. You know, is there anything I can do to support. And just having those conversations, I think, is the key.

Because the more we speak about it, the more we normalize it, the more everybody knows what the playing field is, the less it will happen and the less, you know, prevention is much better than cure.

And if we can stop, have those conversations right at the beginning and make sure that everybody feels respected, then we won't have to deal with any issues down the line.

No. So as we said at the beginning, you are working with Zentano on running a workshop in June, lovely Stanbrook Abbey in Worcestershire.

So anybody listening to this who wants to come to that are more than welcome to come to speak to you in person about this. Just tell us A little bit about the workshop, what you're hoping to achieve, what you'll be focusing on during the.

Day so we can try and dispel some of the myths around it, I think, and start to have those conversations. I think as leaders we have to maybe be brave enough to say, actually this is. Is something I worry about.

This is something I think maybe is is a bigger problem than I realize. I don't quite know how to have those conversations. I don't quite know how to set this up and work with HR to make this work in our environment.

So I think it's trying to dispel some of those myths and start to have those conversations and then talk about ways that we can really build into policies and procedures. How do we review that, what do we need to do?

Having that transparency, you know, having those open discussions and communication and really figuring out ways that we can really bring into the day to day in the workplace to make sure that we send a strong message as leaders about our approach to this and how we start to create that psychological safety with our teams.

I think it's really great if people coming along to that, you know, learn to have that difficult conversation because it's something rich. And I have got asked many times over the years when we run leadership programs, you know, what topics do you really want to talk about?

How do we have difficult conversations? It's the thing everyone's afraid of.

And even that difficult conversation, even calling it that isn't it makes it harder.

Makes it harder.

Yeah, exactly. It's those courageous conversations, isn't it? And I think we can start to do that and talk about ways we can facilitate that.

I always, when deliver any sort of training or coaching, I try and have actionable things you can take away and do in your day to day.

That doesn't feel hard, you know, because we can all know the right thing to do or know the leadership or management theories, but how do you put them into practice?

And I think that's the key, the old topics, but this one particularly is have that transparency, have those open discussions and have some practical takeaways that you can do and bring into your leadership.

I think that's really important that anyone coming to those workshops gets that practical takeaway, because that is the important bit. And who would you think would benefit from being there?

I think any leaders who want to really embrace this and are part of the brave leadership conversation, I think that's really important. But I also think HR leaders could benefit too because quite often, again, it's something they're aware of, but they're not quite sure how to unpick.

They've got the legal knowledge and expertise, of course, and the policies and procedures that maybe put them in place. But there's another bridge, isn't there, that comes to actually. How do you.

How do they translate that into their TO with their leadership team to make sure that this actually happens in the day to day, because the policies and procedures can be there, but actually it still has to happen in the day to day.

Yeah. And it's all about behaviours at the end of the day, isn't it? So how do we create the right.

Behaviours and how do we foster an environment that encourages the behaviours that we want to see?

Great. So anybody listening, if that sounds like it's a day you'd love to spend talking to Annie and Shirley as well, who will be there on the same day.

Now, please do get involved. There will be a sign up link in the podcast notes, I'm guessing. Also where can people find more about you and what you do and sign up Annie?

So my business is optimized performance, so I have my own website, optimizedperformance.co.uk also I'm on LinkedIn. Annie Essler and I usually promote a lot of things around the topic and leadership in general on there as well, so you can contact me there.

Love to hear from md. If anyone has any questions about how they can have those brief conversations and really drive that change, then I'm always happy to hear from them.

Or if they want to find out more about the event at Stanbrook Abbey, I'm happy to give them more information.

Great. And also in Zentano's website there's a link. There's also both Rich and I on our LinkedIn profiles will be posting links as well.

So there's plenty of ways that you can get involved.

We'd love to have a load of people there and have some really brave conversations that day and learn to how to create the right environment for people. So just closing thoughts in Annie, key takeaways and final reflections from you.

I think what's really important is to remove the fear around this topic.

I think there's a lot of fear of people getting it wrong and I think we have to work together and have these courageous conversations in order to remove that fear. We've got to work together to support each other to achieve it. And that divisiveness has to stop.

We have to really just pull in the same direction and engage employees. We want to engage everyone and help them feel empowered within the workplace in order for this to change. So it can't be just from a leadership down.

It's got to be the other way up as well. So we've got to really drive that change with them as well as us as leaders.

Brilliant. So your call to action for listeners is let's start some of these courageous conversations. Let's lead by example.

Absolutely.

And I think that's a great place to end the conversations. Annie, thank you so much for coming to see us today.

My pleasure.

Thank you so much for talking about a topic which is clear. Very important to you, very important to me, and I'm sure very important to a lot of other people.

Yeah. That was my pleasure. Thank you.