Why Comfortable Leadership Is Holding You Back, and What Courage Really Looks Like | #52

Welcome to Unleash youh Impact Unlock Others, a podcast about inspiring leadership. We hope to bring you grounded wisdom stories from real leaders and leave you feeling inspired. Let's dive in.

It's about the everyday choices that leaders make between being comfortable and being effective. In this episode, Rich and I explored how experienced leaders can unknowingly drift towards comfortable leadership.

Maybe avoiding difficult conversations or over relying on familiar approaches, maybe choosing short term harmony or over long term impact. We drew on current research into psychological safety, adaptive leadership, and behavioral risk.

And we examined why courage becomes harder, not easier, as leaders become more senior. This conversation is for leaders who know that staying comfortable may feel easier in the moment, but comes at a much higher cost in the long term.

Thank you for listening and we look forward to many more episodes in the year ahead. Welcome back to Unleash youh Impact. Unlock Others. This is the podcast where we explore what it takes to lead boldly in today's world.

And this year on the podcast, Rich and I have talked about the fears that hold us back, the inner game of stress, how meaningful conversations unlock potential, and many other topics about the unique challenges of being an operational leader. In all of these episodes, one way or another, it points us towards a single Leadership requires courage.

And that's exactly what today's episode is all about. Inspired by an article I read recently from the Harvard Business Review.

In times of economic uncertainty, technological disruption, and constant change, courage isn't a nice to have. It's a difference between leaders who freeze and leaders who step forward. And you've probably all heard the phrase, fortune favors the brave.

So today we're going to dive into what it takes to be a courageous leader. Rich, talking of courageous leaders, how are you?

Okay. Well, I'm not sure I feel that courageous today, but yeah, no, I'm good. Thank you. I'm good.

You must have, in your career, though, had times when you had to be courageous or you've had to, you know, be bold in terms of what you've done.

Yeah, most definitely. As leaders you need to make difficult decisions that you know is going to cheese people off.

You know that there's that performance management conversation that you need to have that perhaps you're holding off from having. Perhaps you know, you need to go to that conference and do that presentation. But you feel that actually are people going to listen to me?

Am I going to come across really well? And you procrastinate and you put it off and you put it off and.

There'S probably lots of reasons why we aren't courageous from time to time. I'm guessing you're alluding to it there. Confidence is one of those reasons why maybe we don't. It could be a lack of skill.

So take managing difficult conversations. Maybe we don't feel we have the skills to do that. What other reasons do you think might be stop us being courageous?

Well, sometimes there's a fear about the outcome. There could be huge uncertainty around the outcome actually in terms of what we're trying to do. It could be actually inherently risky. Yeah.

So I think when we talk about courage, we're not talking about being reckless.

No, definitely not. No. I want this focus actually Rich, to be about bravery as a choice.

So we're definitely not talking about reckless risk taking, but more importantly a conscious decision to act boldly in some way, shape or form, but in the service of something that's actually meaningful. Yeah, that's what we're talking about here.

I think it is important to be intentional in this because I think a lot of the times our fears maybe unconsciously holding us back.

Yeah.

So if we can learn to be more self aware around actually why are we hesitating to make this decision? Why are we hesitating to do this presentation? Why are we hesitating to go to this meeting? It's worth thinking about actually. What's holding me back?

Yeah, well, you know what happens. The stock answer to fear for humans is often fight or freeze.

Yes.

Yeah. So we know that happens, but I think in leadership that's what we mean. We need to understand that that happens.

But still take that bold, courageous choice anyway.

Yeah. And I think the fight, flight, freeze thing, I think we'll explore that maybe a little bit more later. But sometimes that can serve us really well.

But often I think in the in business context, fight, flight, freeze doesn't serve us well usually.

No, I think you're right. But we'll explore that we'll explore that. So let's talk about why courage matters in leadership.

Now, in the article that I read from the Harvard Business Review, the guy who wrote it defines courage as. And I'll read it out, a willingness to take bold, risky action to serve a purpose that you perceive to be worthy, despite the fear.

Now, I know the risky word is going to be a bit of. A. Bit of a trigger here, but we can. We can explore that. But how do you feel about that definition?

Or would you define it slightly differently yourself?

No, I think that's good.

And inserting the word risky in there, I think is appropriate because often a lot of decisions we make or a lot of actions we need to take are inherently risky. So we don't live a meaningful, full life if we don't take risks?

No.

So otherwise, we live a bland, almost like purposeless existence where as human beings, we don't grow. So I think it's important that we weave into this the concept of risk, the concept of healthy ambition.

Because as a human race, that's how we've grown and that's how we've developed.

It becomes a problem when there's an unhealthy focus on reckless risk taking or ambition that is selfish, for example, you know, so it's about having a healthy relationship with those things.

It's reminded me, actually of two conversations I've had this week, one with my own daughter and one with a leader I spoke to yesterday. And in both those conversations, I was talking about the importance of getting out of your comfort zone.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So my daughter, obviously, you know, she's relatively young. She needs to learn that, actually to learn and grow, you need to come out your comfort zone.

The leader I was talking to, good leader, but obviously wants to develop herself much further. And again, I said, well, the reason. The way you do that is you get out your comfort zone, try something new.

I don't mean stretch yourself so far that you break, but you need to get out your comfort zone. Why do you think human beings are reluctant to come out of their comfort zone?

Well, because it's scary. It's inherently scary. And when we push ourselves outside of our comfort zone, there's an inherent risk in that.

Yeah.

It's interesting you talk about pushing ourselves out of our comfort zone. I might have talked about this before on previous podcasts, but my son, he's got a T shirt that has the words seek discomfort.

Okay.

Yeah.

I think it's related to a YouTube channel that he watches, I think, called the yes Siri where there's a group of people who explore this concept of actually pushing themselves out of their comfort zone and seeking to learn and grow as a result of putting themselves through those experiences that feel inherently risky, inherently scary. But as human beings, they document their growth and their development as a result of going through these experiences. And interesting.

Talking to my son, him and his partner, they try to do things that push themselves out of their comfort zone.

Brilliant. It goes back to my point. It's a conscious choice.

Yes.

Yeah.

Because, I mean, if.

If I think about myself and my own personal journey, I remember as a young person being put into situations or asked to be put into situations where I would have to talk publicly about something.

Yeah.

And I find that hugely, hugely scary.

Yeah.

Okay. So. So if we'd have asked my.

My young self, would I be doing stuff like this when, you know, when I'm in my 60s or whatever, I would have not seen this as possible because, you know, I remember standing up in front of people and going red in the face and stuttering and not being able to articulate clearly and calmly, my head going, you know, my mind going blank and all that sort of stuff.

But I constantly push myself to do stuff like public speaking, to do training, to do facilitation, where I think now I'm in a place where actually I can do those things and be calm and articulate myself relatively clearly.

I think we'll leave the listeners to judge that one. No, you do. Joking apart, you do. And you bring them on to my next point. That actually courage is a skill that can be developed.

It's not an innate trait.

Yes, well, it is, absolutely. And it's having that mindset to push yourself out of your comfort zone.

I mean, we've talked about the concept of growth mindset before on previous podcasts, and the two things are interrelated.

So if we want to grow and develop and constantly improve ourselves as human beings, we're going to have to do things that challenge us, that push our capability, push our competence, and push our inherent sense of self worth, perhaps challenge both those aspects, but doing things, making mistakes, learning from them, and then we grow and develop as human beings. So we've got to be prepared to make the mistakes and just push ourselves.

What's interesting, when I was preparing for this conversation today, I was thinking about some of the episodes we've done this year. So there were. There's one we did earlier in the year about the fears that hold us back. And we talked in that about.

It's not the absence of Fear, it's the triumph over it. When you get yourself out your comfort zone, like you said, you have a go.

It may not be perfect, doesn't matter, but that's how you begin to begin to grow as a human being.

And we also talked, I think, in the episode about the inner game of stress where you were articulating the difference between self one, which is that critical voice in your head, and self two, which is the more authentic, capable self. And how you have that courage comes from aligning those two things.

I don't think you wanted to sort of wreak recap on that because I think it's an important point in terms of being a courageous leader.

Yeah. I mean, if you think about the way human mind and human consciousness works, we have all these thoughts pinging in and out of our head all the time.

Yeah.

And you know, sometimes those like those conscious thoughts can really get in the way. They can be a real interference to us doing stuff. So the self one is that critical voice.

And actually at times it serves us really well because it's the part of us that, you know, when we step into a situation, it's the part of us said, are you sure you're up to this type thing now that's helpful because it gives us the signal we're stepping into a situation that's perhaps going to challenge us so we can prepare ourselves for that.

But in my experience, sometimes that self one, that critical voice, can become over amplified and it can become the dominant voice in our head and it stops us from taking the risks and pushing ourselves. And the self too, is the part of us that thinks allows us to step back and not allow that critical self, if you like, to take over.

Yeah.

Okay. So it acknowledges that part. And then we grind and we center ourselves and operate from a different place.

So it's acknowledging the critical voice, but it's not allowing it to dominate our actions and our behaviors.

Yeah.

That's very relevant because I know we've had conversations recently in our business about the growth of what we're going to offer to our clients in terms of new services. And it would be very easy.

I think in the current climate where it's uncertain, it's ambiguous, it's, you know, all those words to just say, well, let's just hold off for another six months or. Because that, that, that sort of just be. Play it safe.

Yeah.

Voice would come here.

Yeah.

Or is it the right time? Do you think we can make this happen? All of these things probably happen to people all the time, but Sooner or later.

Because things might not get any better for the next six months or a year.

Yeah.

Sooner or later, we've got to say no, actually, let's be bold about this.

Yeah, yeah.

And we'll talk about some strategies of how to be bold in a minute.

But I'm sure people listen to this, are going to be able to think of things where they want to make a decision or they want to try something new or they want to be innovative or whatever it might be. But for some reason, as you said, that critical voice is just holding them back a little bit.

Yeah.

Well, if you think of some of the decisions we're trying to make as a business now, I mean, we're thinking of trying to create some online pathways around some of the content that we've been using as part of our leadership development courses for years.

And, you know, when I think about the design we're going to do about that, my critical voice thinks, I wonder how that's compared with such and such or this business or that business. And, you know, sometimes that's useful because, you know, you'll do a bit of market testing, but sometimes it holds you back. So.

So that that voice that unhealthily compares ourselves to other people and that becomes then the interference that holds us back.

That's when we need to engage the self, to take a step back, grind ourself, acknowledge the challenges and the risk, but step ahead and take the risk and be bold anyway.

Yeah. And I think that's a really good current example to bring that point to life. So let's talk about some strategies. And these strategies are not ours.

These are taken from the Harvard Business article. But I just like to expand them from our perspective. So in the article, the first strategy that they talk about is create a positive narrative.

So what they mean by that, obviously, reframe uncertainty into opportunity.

Yeah.

Now, we did talk in the episode on super communication how stories shape courage, confidence, and collective action. So I just want to pick up on that and how you see that as a way to develop some bold decision making, some courage. Create a positive narrative.

Yeah, Language is really important. I think so. Language shapes our reality. Language shapes our worldview.

So often I think people don't realize the power and control language has over their mindset and hence their behaviors. And sometimes they can see this, you know, shape a positive narrative is, you know, positive psychology nonsense.

Yeah.

And I get that on one level, actually, because in my view, some of the stuff around positive psychology has been a little bit purist and a little bit Unhelpful. Because it's not acknowledged.

Some of the deeper issues around our psychology, like our fears that we actually need to have a healthy relationship with them and not just dismiss.

Yeah.

So reframing our language, I think, can be really powerful and really important. I remember I went for an interview for a very senior position in an organization, and I remember the critical voice.

Yeah, go on.

You know, days before, like, really playing havoc with my nerves and my confidence around this.

What was it saying to you?

Well, am I good enough? You know, I. You know, looking at the potential salary that they were going to, you know, pay.

Yeah.

Am I worth that?

Yeah.

Why would they pay me that sort of money to do that? You know, all of that sort of. Am I worth it? Am I enough? Do I have the capability to do this? And actually, so that might.

That fear, that critical voice might have been telling me something important. So it is possible you apply for jobs, and actually it's not for you. Okay.

And it's important to realize that so you don't put yourself into situations where actually you're a bit. A bit delusional about the talent and ability and the capability that you actually have.

But when I stepped back to think about it in terms of the experience and knowledge I had at the time, it would have been a step up. This job was a step up. But actually I did have the capability to do it. Yeah.

So I remember having a little bit of a mindset shift and drive into that interview, and I reframed the language I was using and say, I'm going to walk through the door and behave as if I was head of this function.

Yeah.

So I have the skills and the capability. I wasn't being boastful about.

No, no.

I was being realistic. But so I reframed it as being something that's going to. I'm not capable into something that, you know, behave as if I am that person.

So I walk in with that sort of positive, intentional mindset, and they can see what I will be like in that role. I actually got the job, actually.

Yeah.

Good. Interesting.

But I guess it was to prove that actually that work, then.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, it's no guarantee that it's gonna work, but I. I think I did a fair interview and sold myself appropriately, you know, because I reframed that internal narrative.

But the important part of that is if you went in with that negative narrative, it's a bit like from a sporting. You know. You know, I play a lot of tennis.

If you go into a match against players you know, are better than you thinking, I'm gonna lose today because they're better. Guess what? You will lose because you've already lost. You've already told yourself. And I think it's the same thing.

You go into that interview thinking, am I good enough? You're not going to present yourself in a way that means you're going to get that job unless you're extremely lucky. Only when they're interviewing.

But the point here is you have to act as if, don't you?

Yeah. And the other thing to say is to not push away the anxiety.

No.

Okay. So I think I've talked about this on a previous podcast where creating a healthy relationship with our fears and using that positively.

So, for example, if you go into a presentation, and I've done this before where I've gone into a presentation, I can feel the anxiety.

Right.

You know, because actually, it's an important presentation, and if it goes well, it could have impacts on the, say, the business or, you know, sales opportunity, whatever that might be. So the anxiety is telling me something important to prepare and to. And to be at my best.

Now, what we can do to reframe a positive narrative is excitement and anxiety as emotions are very, very similar.

Yeah. Yeah. Very, very.

Almost identical, probably.

Yeah.

Okay. So when we're feeling anxious, we can reframe that and say, actually, I'm really excited about this challenge.

Acknowledge it's a challenge, and it's going to stretch you, but you reframe the anxiety into excitement, and it completely shifts your internal narrative, shifts your mindset, and shifts the way you behave.

And let's be clear, also, we're not just talking about the importance of internal narratives, because that's really important.

We're also talking about if you're trying to lead in your business and you need to articulate some things to your team, it's also about the external narrative. So craft those positioning statements, those pieces of communication really carefully so that you are putting across.

This is an opportunity, not something to be fearful of.

Yeah. And I think this. There's a little caveat I would add to that. I would absolutely agree with that.

You know, leaders are there to shape the narrative of the organization.

Yeah.

Frankly, I don't want to get too political about this, but it's what the government is not doing at the moment.

Yeah.

It's not framing a positive narrative for our country. You know, so that's a. That's a leadership fault. So that's not to say we shouldn't be honest about the issues.

No.

Okay.

Agreed.

So it's not about, it's not about unhealthy spin?

No.

Okay.

So I think when we communicate to people and communicate, we're honest about the challenges, but we frame it in a way where actually people can feel motivated, inspired, and have confidence to step out and be bold and take the risk and push and push the business.

Yeah. I think your point about spin is particularly important because we're not advocating that at all. No, this has got to be real.

Yes.

Okay, let's go on to the second strategy then, which in the article they call cultivating confidence. So what they mean by that confidence comes from training, it comes from coaching, it comes from.

I think you talked about preparing properly and also focusing on what's in my sphere of influence and control. So in terms of operational leadership, courage isn't about knowing everything but relying on your competence, the competence of your team.

It's about preparation, it's about process. So can you unpack that a bit for me? Because I know competence is one of your areas of real expertise here.

Because I've read the Harvard Business Review article myself, so I go a little bit deeper on this as well. So.

So yes, creating a healthy relationship with your skills and abilities, you know, what they call competence, is really important because often what happens is when that critical voice comes to play, what often happens is it downplays, underplays the knowledge, skills and experiences that we actually have. So I think it's really important to deeply connect with that, be realistic about that. So don't have an over inflated view of yourself.

Don't have an under inflated view of yourself.

So true humanity is where you connect with the competence that you actually have and you walk into a situation knowing actually that you had the ability to deal with this. I mean, a really good example of that is max Verstappen, the F1 current world champion.

When he steps into a race car, you can see it in his body language. He knows he's the best driver in the world and he embodies that.

So we're not all the best racing drivers in the world and we're not all the best business leaders. Okay, so there are better leaders out there than me. There are better facilitators out there than me.

But actually what we need to do is to be rooted in the competence we have and put ourselves into situations where actually we know that we can step into that and be our authentic self.

I take your point about there are better people at X than you. There's a couple of caveats to that. Well, how do you know that? You're probably right, but actually it's not healthy to compare yourself to others.

It's about being the best version of Rich that you can be, the best version of Dave that you can be. That's the important bit, isn't it?

Well, it's important not to unhealthily compare ourselves with others. So if by me comparing myself with other people, I undermine my inner sense of self worth and I downplay my confidence, that's okay.

But I think it's important to have humility, because if you're in a situation where somebody has more competence and ability than you do, you step back and you allow them to step forward.

Yeah, agree.

So that's what I mean. So it's about having a healthy relationship with that comparison. I would agree.

As a general rule, often people unhealthily compare themselves to others and it becomes an interference.

Yeah, good point. So. And if anybody wants to sort of dive deeper into what Richard's just been talking about there, we did do two episodes recently on confidence.

You can go a bit more deeper on the podcast in those. Let's talk about the third strategy. It sounds pretty obvious, but it's an important one. Take small steps.

So if you're trying to make what we would call a big change, that often starts with small, deliberate steps. We talked about that recently in the podcast on sense making, actually, and understanding context as well.

We also had an episode called Breaking the Glass Ceiling, and we talked about the importance of courage for women in leadership. And that often involves incremental progress rather than massive shifts. So there's a lot of context where this is really important.

But I know you're a big advocate of taking small steps.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So would you want to unpack that one as to how it applies to courage?

So again, I'll link it to the. Perhaps to the critical voice when we see a challenge that particularly potentially is genuinely huge. I was talking to a leader recently about that.

They are facing a huge transformational challenge inside their organization.

Right.

And frankly, in their position, I would see that as a huge challenge. And it's very easy to become overwhelmed by that. Okay. And I think it's important to be honest and realistic about the challenge.

But if we allow the overwhelming nature of the issue to become the dominant narrative in our head, it can hold us back. So chunking stuff down into small steps and saying, okay, right now, that's where we need to go to in the future.

But right now, within my sphere of influence and control, what can I focus on and what can I shift that's going to make a difference? That might take us at least a couple of steps in that direction.

So the best leaders, in my view, acknowledge the huge challenge, but they're really good at tracking a clear way through and saying, right, this is what we're going to do next, and giving their people clarity around the next steps and chunking it down into what feels like more manageable steps. So if you articulate the small steps within your influence and control, you can have confidence because it feels more manageable to do.

Yeah, no, I agree.

So the overwhelm doesn't drive the mindset. The small step makes it feel realistic and achievable. Does that make sense?

It does make sense. And also I think it does lead back to that previous conversation I had with Steven Morris around.

When you're taking these small steps, the first step might not be jumping to a solution.

It might be, let's take a step back and understand the context in which we're doing this, make some sense of that context, and then go to the first part of the solution. I think sometimes we can try and jump to a solution too quickly. Taking small steps isn't just about solutions.

It's about understanding what's around you. And as you said, the bigger the challenge, the more important that's going to be.

Yes.

Okay. And that leads on to the next strategy. And one of my favorites actually here, which they talk about in the article, is Find Connection.

So they say, you know, they use the analogy courage is a team sport. So we all have networks, we have allies, critics, what have you. But some of these things give us a backbone in which to act.

Yeah, I mean, I'm sure you have a support network. I have a support network. We support each other as well.

And we've talked about in previous episodes, if you surround yourself with good people, it might be advisors, it might just be somebody who's a sounding board for you. But these are the people that can give you courage and allow you to step into a more bolder form of decision making or behavior.

So how do you feel about connection as a really critical part of courage?

I think it's really important. I mean, leadership as a role often is quite lonely sometimes.

If you're at the top of an organization, you'll need to make decisions that impacts even your senior team. And that can feel quite isolating and again, quite overwhelming.

So finding a way to be able to talk stuff through, get support, get people to also challenge you, I think is really important.

Yeah, I remember a Few years ago, this is about 10, 12 years ago, I wanted to make a really big change in a situation where I was a leader. This is a non work related one, but it still makes the point.

And I knew that the big changes I wanted to make, my belief was they were the right changes, but it was going to cause some kerfuffle, to use an old fashioned word.

And what I felt was the right starting point in terms of connection is go and speak to somebody who is senior in that organization, almost like somebody who's got that trustee, that wise head and say, this is the change I want to make in this organization. Do you support me or do you think I'm talking nonsense? And B, how do you think I just approach it?

I've got my own ideas and I can articulate those to you.

And I think that was the most important step that I took because not only did that person support me and said, actually yes, it's exactly what we need to do, but I would guide you to do this and that as well as a way of navigating the situation. And I think connecting with that person, using that advice that I was given, sense, checking your own thoughts is really, really valuable.

And I don't know whether we do enough of that sometimes.

Yeah. The thing I would also say is choose a critical friend. I don't mean a friend that's going to undermine you.

No, no.

But what I mean is a friend that's going to be actually really honest, they're going to be supportive, they're going to listen, but they're going to say, rich, are you nuts? Or just don't do that and offer a perspective that's different and perhaps just lift you out that fog.

Yeah, well. And I think the person I'm thinking about and I spoke to, I knew that was a forthright person who would give me a straight answer.

I think that's sometimes what you need, isn't it? You don't, you don't need somebody who's just going to sort of stroke your ego and tell you what you want to hear.

No, actually sometimes you want to hear something you don't want to hear.

Yeah, yeah.

The final thing I'd just say around finding connection, so certainly find connection with people, but is to constantly reconnect yourself with your values and your sense of purpose. Because if you're reconnecting yourself with your sense of, say for example, your sense of purpose, why, you know, why are you doing this?

Yeah.

You know, what's the difference you want to make in the world? That sense of connecting to something beyond yourself, I think can be really powerful and really, really motivating.

Because, you know, when you come up against the naysayers and the challenges and, you know, that internal critical voice that's holding you back, connecting to that bigger picture, that thing that you believe beyond yourself, whether that's your personal faith or, you know, personal values that you have in terms of the difference you want to make in the world, I think that can give us the courage to step out as well.

And it's not just your own personal sense of purpose and your own personal values. It's also for those businesses have done it. What's the purpose of the business? What's the core values of the business?

They should be your guiding principles as well, in terms of making these bold decisions, shouldn't they?

Exactly.

Yeah. Okay, let's go on to the fifth and final strategy. Stay calm. So courage requires regulating your emotions.

It might require some good habits and rituals. And we've already talked about. It involves reframing. Yeah.

Now, again, back in the inner game of stress episode we had, we talked about managing internal narratives, and that helps leaders steady themselves, particularly when the stakes are high. So, yeah, unpack it for me, if you will, Staying calm and the importance of that in being a courageous leader.

So this is about creating a healthy connection with what we call the fight flight freeze. We mentioned that just now. So this is the reflex system in us as human beings that gets triggered when we're in physical danger.

So, I mean, let's go back, you know, thousands of years into human history where, you know, before we had all this technology and that sort of stuff, we were walking across the savannah, and then we see a lion in the distance. Yeah. Our fight flight freeze system, it gets triggered, and that's the thing that's trying to keep us safe.

So, you know, I'm not sure what you do when you come across the line. Do you fight flight or freeze? Probably run. I think.

I've never had to make that decision, thankfully.

But it might be freeze because, you know, the line didn't see you move. It might be. I don't know, whatever it is. But it's the system inside us that. That protects us from physical danger.

Yeah.

And, you know, so that can serve us really well. But the problem can be inside organizations. In our contemporary society, we're often not in physical danger.

No, we're not. No.

And so what tends to happen is we catastrophize things that trigger our fight flight freeze response, our stress response, and that can be a really unhealthy way of operating. So being able to regulate our fight flight, freeze our sympathetic nervous system as we call it, and regulating that I think is really important.

We've talked in previous podcasts, so we're not going to go into detail around that now, but taking deep breaths to reset your sympathetic nervous system, parasympathetic nervous system, being aware of when that critical voice is kicking in and triggering our. Our unhealthy emotional responses and reframing that. We've talked all about that as leaders and managers.

Becoming emotionally intelligent to emotionally self regulate are really important skills to develop.

Do you think that because we can all think of people that naturally seem calmer than others or they don't panic in a crisis, do you think there's some of this innate or do you think actually, no, it is a learned skill or is there a combination of both here?

I think it's a combination of both. So I think the way we're wired, for example, I think we're wired quite differently.

Yeah.

So I think I would have a tendency not to be triggered so much. Whereas I think you're a person with a more active fuse.

Right.

But that's not necessarily a good or a bad thing. Okay. So for example, that could be a really good thing because you're the sort of person who's very proactive. You push, you respond, you're reactive.

So actually there are situations where that can serve you really well and not serve me well, where I can be too passive in some situations.

Yeah. And interesting. I think you're right about I probably have got a shorter fuse than you the way you described it.

But I'm also very, very calm under pressure as well. So there's been some extreme examples out in my life where I've just been very, very calm.

Yeah. But that's self regulation.

So what we're talking about is we'll be inherently wired in different ways and that wiring will serve us well or not serve us well. So it's important to develop the ability to self regulate. So at times my challenge might be to push myself to be less passive, more reactive.

Yeah, yeah, I get it.

It just depends on the situation. But. So I think it's a mix of both, if I'm being honest.

Yeah. Okay. So those are the five strategies. So if anybody wants to find the article online, it's called now is the time for Courage.

It's the Harvard Business Review and it's talking about the five strategies to be a bold leader. So just to sort of take a Little summary here, Rich, of what we've talked about today in terms of practical takeaways.

We've talked about ask yourself, what positive narrative can I create? We've talked about that internally as well as externally.

We've talked about where can you train, coach yourself deliberately and expand your toolkit of skills and knowledge. We've talked about the small steps, which is really important to take. We've talked about who is your courage network, for want of a better phrase.

Yeah, yeah, I quite like that. And we'd also talked about staying calm and grounded under pressure. So those are the sort of key tips and takeaways.

What would you say is your sort of final message to anybody listening to this today?

So self awareness and emotional intelligence is central to good leadership.

So the self awareness is about creating a healthy relationship with our thoughts and our feelings and our emotions and not allowing those to become the dominant unhealthy narrative.

So it's being in tune with our emotions and using those as signals to understand the context and then to use the self management, our self regulation side, to step in those situations using all that data that our thoughts and feelings have given us, but stepping in and being more grounded and stepping into those situations confidently. So in other words, we feel the fear, but we do it anyway.

Do it anyway.

Yeah.

I guess my top tip would be it's an analogy that you and I have used a lot in the past. It's the magic wand analogy.

If I could wave a magic wand over this decision I've got to make or this course of action I want to take, what would I want the ideal outcome to be? Now we haven't got a magic wand. We can't do that. But at least it looks at the possibility.

And then how do we get from where we are now to that possibility? We might not get right to the, the to the end, but it could take us a long way forward.

Yeah, yeah. Connecting with those possibilities helps us to reframe more positively.

Yeah, yeah. Brilliant, brilliant. So thanks for your time today, Rich.

Yeah, thank you, Dave.

Thank you for everybody listening to this. We will be back with another topic very soon. Thank you. Bye bye, bye.

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