How to be resilient and avoid climbing the burnout ladder (part 2) | #69

Welcome to the Connected Leadership Podcast by Zentano.

For forward thinking leaders who want to lead with confidence, clarity and impact, we bring you grounded wisdom, real stories from real leaders, conversations that leave you thinking differently, feeling inspired and ready to act. Let's dive in. So hi, this is Dave from the Connected Leadership Podcast by Zentano.

Welcome back to this Voices of Leadership episode with our guest Alan Muskett.

Now, if you haven't heard last week's first episode, it really is worth listening to that first because this is going to be a follow on episode where Alain dives deeper into the whole topic of burnout and his brilliant book, the Burnout Ladder.

For those who did listen last week, today's episode, Alan will go deeper into the burnout ladder itself and talk about some of the tools that practical help. I really hope you enjoy listening to this. Thank you.

So, so ironically, I was burning out during the, during the process of the book and it was interesting because there's a stage called cynicism where and when you're cynical about the world, which is where you get to sort of mid to late stages.

Let's go through rungs one at a time. Yeah, yeah, sure, let's talk. So what's the, what's the first rung on the book then?

The first rung is ignition.

Ignition, what does that mean?

So ignition, it's like, well, every fire starts with a spark, doesn't it? So it is the ignition. So this is when you almost sort of pre change and you might be thinking about a change, right.

You might be contemplating whether you're gonna take on extra work or it might be, we said it's not just about work. Maybe you're thinking about you're doing a home renovation while you're at the same time relocating.

It's not relocating, but relocating offices or something like that. You know what I mean?

So, and you, you think about the change you're going to make and it's a very exciting time, but it's also very nerve wracking time.

Yeah.

Because there's a bit of, you know, excitement and you might have a bit of swagger because oh yeah, I've been promoted. Look at me. You know, there's also a bit of fear. Can I do it?

Yeah.

Imposter syndrome.

Yeah.

So, and this is the time when, when I think you need to step back and say, well, what does my life look like in the next six months?

So for example, one of the tools in there is a very simple wheel of life where you've got a wheel and you put different headings around the outside of the wheel, say, well, that's my job, that's my social life, these are my finances, these are my relationships. And you score how much attention you give to each other. And what's that gonna look like in the next six months?

Because if you realize that I'm gonna have to give attention to more than one or two areas, you're probably setting yourself up for failure because you've got too much going on.

Yeah, and that's what I like about the book, is that you've got an appendix, haven't you, where you go through each of the six stages. You describe what that stage is like and the tools that you can use. And I think that's it. So it's a really practical.

Yeah, it's almost like you look it up, you know, so well, okay, I'm at, I'm at ignition stage, which is the only rung you should be on, which is where you are, by the way.

Oh, is it?

Yes, yes it is.

Thank God for that.

So you're not even on there because your scores are, your scores are quite low. They're not really significant in the sense that you're anywhere on the ladder.

So I think you're just looking at the ladder and smiling at the moment.

Well, I hope, I hope I've learned from, you know, the bad experiences I've had before because I'm, you know, I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have been to answer it that way. All through my career. There have been times when I've answered it quite differently.

And you'd have probably come to me if we knew each other and said, you need to pay attention to this because you're in danger of burning out. And there would have been no doubt about that in my mind.

So why, why do you think you're like this now?

Yeah, it goes back, I think, to what you said. Well, a number of things you've said have got light bulbs in my head. One is the importance of self awareness.

If as a 21 year old man, was I self aware like you? No, I wasn't, you know, so I think that degree of self awareness comes through life experience. It comes through just doing the hard work on yourself.

I had a coach on here a few weeks ago, Nick Marlow, and he was talking about, you know, the importance of leaders doing the hard work, work on themselves, which basically meant was self awareness and then self management. I didn't have that to the degree I've got it now. I mean, we're never Going to be fully self aware. There's always something to learn, isn't there?

And there's always, you'll see me in a way that I don't see myself. That's always going to happen. But I do think I've done a lot of work on myself and I'm naturally quite curious.

And one of my core values is a love of learning. I've always wanted to push myself. It comes from my granddad and how he helped me when I was a young lady.

So I'm always, I'm getting more like it as I get older. I'm starting to what is it? I think I know where I could be wrong. And what is it? I don't know that I should know.

I do more of that now than I've ever done. Okay. Which is bizarre. I don't know why, I just do. Okay.

Maybe it's because I've got kids of my own and maybe I'm trying to like you, I'm trying to help them. But something now that's a constant thing for me is love of learning. Always trying to find out more.

So whether that answers your question, whether that helps me not rise up the ladder and get to the more damaging stages of it. I don't know.

I think yes, it does. I mean the self awareness means that you're going to be able to spot the signs within yourself.

Yeah.

And I think that's, that's quite easily said but not easily done because most of us kind of operate on a, almost like a computer program that we're unaware of what's happening. When you, you dig deeper, you realize that, okay, I'm behaving that way or I'm reacting that way because of something inside me.

You know, it's like, you know, my experiences, my beliefs, the way I'm shaped, my, almost like my DNA, you know, my, my genetic makeup as well, that that cause you to behave in a certain way. And very often that's unconscious to you, isn't it? And you find yourself reacting without question.

Yeah.

And I think if you can step back and do that, you're more likely to have choices.

Well, I think that's the thing, the conscious choice.

So of course the other thing, three years ago when I was going through that tough time, one of the things in my head was, hang on, you teach this stuff for a living. You talk to leaders about the importance of mindset and getting mindset in the right place.

And so you now need to take a dose of your own medicine because your mindset is going Down a non helpful route and you know it is and you've got to do something about it. So what are you going to do about it? So I guess there was a level of awareness of that there as well.

I recognized it and you know, probably I should do given what I do for a living. Yeah, but it's not always that easy though, is it? That's the thing, it's not that easy.

And you're a human being as well.

And I also think because I've, I've had a hard time with myself over this, you think, well, as a therapist or as a mindfulness coach and, and people expect you to be calm and perfect. Yeah, in a sense. You know, where's your mindfulness, Al? You know, if I sort of lose my rag or something or I get upset about something.

Well, you know, if a mindfulness is not about never losing your temper, it's being aware of the emotions and being able to regulate them and understand them. So you have choices. But it's also about, I think, the fact that we also need, there's a paradox here.

We need to understand the other side of it, don't we? Of what we do so that you know what not to do or how to correct a situation. So, you know, that's my excuse.

You also made a really important point because we're, you and I are just human beings. So no matter what we do for a living, what we teach for a living or help other coach, I think is how I would describe what I do.

But you're a human being. You have got faults and failings and we're not immune to this stuff just because of what we do for a living, are we?

So I think that's really important to recognize. This is not about perfection. We're not looking for perfection here.

We're looking for awareness and some conscious choices off the back of that awareness. That's what you're talking about.

Which is a great link because one of the other tools at this level is to be aware of your perfectionism.

Okay?

Because in all the, all the people have contacted me, burnoutees or potential burnoutees as I call them, all have the same thing, which is the very high standards and expectations of themselves.

Okay?

Now that's great because that shows you care, it shows you're conscientious, it shows, probably shows that you're ambitious.

But if it's not managed and controlled, it can be very damaging because you set yourself up for very high expectations and if you don't meet them, then you start to Feel the fear of what happens if you don't meet them.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, and then you go into kind of avoidant behaviors, although those kind of apparent failures, even though they're not because you might have done something really well. Somebody thinks Dave did a great job there. But you think inside, you know that that wasn't to my expectations. And you see it as a failure.

And then you hurt yourself by saying, well, that I see that in that way. So next time that situation comes around, you've got this kind of false sense that you failed, which is self damaging, self limiting.

I also working with Rich over these last 10 years that we've been running a business together because he's very open about his own journey with confidence particularly.

So this confidence in leadership program that we've now written has gone live, is based on Rich's life experiences and his dissertation when he did his degree. So whilst I've inputted to it, he's the main author of this program and he's been on a really interesting journey himself with that.

And so we've had a lot of conversations over the last ten years about this.

And one of the things I think I've realized is, you know, I wouldn't say I'm necessarily a perfectionist, but I've always set myself high standards and wanted to achieve them. But actually I've reframed, I think, what success is and what failure is.

I don't think if I haven't achieved something I set out to achieve that I'm a failure. I don't call myself a failure. Yeah. But I will take it as a learning expert. Okay. You had an aspiration to do this.

You didn't actually end up doing that. Why was that? What was the learning you can take not you're a failure because you didn't meet the aspiration that you set yourself quite right.

And I think a lot of people haven't yet got to that point, have they, where they, as you said, they do classify those kind of things as I'm a failure or I'm just not good enough.

Yeah. Because that. That's conditioning as well, isn't it? Because it might be seen that way by others.

And then you kind of take on that belief rather than your own internal belief, which was, actually, I'm quite happy with what I did, but somebody else might think, well, that wasn't good enough or you could have done better. And we tend to be, I think, anyway, we tend to be swayed by that a little bit. Unless you've got absolutely rock solid Belief in yourself.

And that can be tough, you know.

So light is the first stage.

Yes, it is.

Where do you go from there, then?

So there we start. Once we're past that rung, we go into what I call acceleration. So this is when you put your foot down. You know, life really kind of moves on a pace.

And this is that really kind of exciting stage I was talking about. Like, that kind of alluring bit, really. We're getting the dopamine hits. You feel like you feel that sense of validation.

Yeah.

Because you feel useful. Yeah, we all want to feel useful. Want to feel like we're going somewhere. But there's that side.

But there's also a little bit of negativity starts to creep in.

Okay.

Because you know when you were sat having a beer thinking about this promotion that you're gonna do and this.

This job you're gonna do, and I'm gonna do this, that, and the other, and yeah, I'm gonna change that, and, you know, I will sort that thing out and whatever. And then reality kicks in and you think, this isn't quite the same as I thought, and maybe it's just a little bit harder.

So that's quite a tricky stage where it's enjoyable, but you start to see some negativity.

Okay.

Okay.

Yeah.

And then after that. So I guess the key tools for that are something I call faulty thinking.

Okay.

Which is when negative thoughts creep in.

Yeah.

How can I spot them for what they are?

Okay.

And are they real or not? Are the thoughts real, or is it something I've made up? Is it a narrative that I don't need to follow? And what's a more healthy way to think? Right.

Okay.

So that's quite an important stage. And also at this stage, this rung, then you should be looking at what habits do I need to put into place to protect me?

And that's usually making time for breaks.

It's making time for your exercise routines or just your general leisure time that people just will start to give up at the next stage, which is neglect. So neglect is when to keep up the pace of this thing you're doing in life in general. You've got to give something up.

So you stop going to the gym, you stop socializing. The family time suffers, you suffer, and then you start to feel a bit tired and worn out.

So this is when the body starts to wake, and you just think, oh, God, I'm really shattered. Nobody's telling me I look tired and I'm starting to not sleep.

So at this, it's a time to step back and reflect and say, how can I look after myself better?

This is. This is rung three and you're. And your six. Six rung model. This is the bit where you suddenly had this awakening in your journey. Was it?

Yeah, well, it was. It was one step on from this.

Was it?

Okay, yeah. So I think, I think at this stage you just feel battered, right? But you're still sort of.

You're still going round and round in the washing machine or the tumble dryer and you don't really know which way you're facing.

Yeah, yeah.

And then the next stage, which I call cynicism, which is a word that gets used in the WHO definition of burnout. You start to feel cynical or resentful about your job, but you start to feel cynical and resentful about everything.

And this is where I got to when I was editing the book, right, Because I was starting to get cynical about myself because I was striking whole passages out from my manuscript thinking, that's rubbish, that's nonsense. People aren't going to read this. In fact, why am I writing this book anyway? How could I possibly have anything to say? I'm a faith, I know exactly.

Oh, my God.

Those kind of things creep in because you're tired, your confidence is gone. You just feel like you can't get through your to do list.

And then somebody else might send an email out to the whole company and say, well, I just done this, or I've raised this for charity or something. And you just go, well, you're great, aren't you? And a bit of unpleasantness starts to creep into you.

You lose yourself, you lose yourself of self awareness. You lose your self, you know, your kindness, your sense of empathy.

And then so for that, the key kind of tool in there is about how you manage your emotions.

Yeah.

So I've got something which I adapted from somewhere else. It's called Emotions, Truth and Choices.

Okay.

Basically, you lean into the emotions that you're facing. You don't push them away because if you push them away, they only come back anyway. You kind of look at if you've lost your temper.

Two days ago, maybe you said something in a meeting and you walk stomped out or whatever it is. A couple of days later when you've had the chance to calm, either meditate upon it.

Yeah.

And I've got a meditation that's on YouTube for this. Or just journal on it. Just.

Right, yeah.

What were the emotions I was feeling? Be honest with yourself, because you're a.

Human being and Be specific, I'm assuming, as well. Yeah, yeah. Was it?

Yeah, exactly.

And, you know, and try and be as emotionally literate as you can, because the more words you can use to describe it, then the more quickly it will pass through you. You know, you'll come to terms with it. So. And then what the point after that, the truth is, you know, what were the facts of the situation, actually?

Yeah.

And it might be that, well, you know, that person said something and they had a point of view and I didn't like it because of my ego or, you know, and you're just coming to terms with what actually happened. And then the final step is choices. What can I do now? I can't change the past. How can I take the learning? What would I do differently?

What am I learning about myself? And it's a lovely little process for just moving through, so you can let go of regret and you can start to regulate yourself better the next time.

Do you think when you get to the neglect and cynicism stage of the ladder, you know, it's quite, as you said, it's quite. It's quite a sort of brutal stage of this. Okay. Yes. I could read your book and the tools in there are great.

Do you think that alone could help everybody, or do you think most people need some intervention from somebody else here to help them along? Once you're in that kind of negative mindset, it's very hard to see past it.

And yes, journaling and meditation and all these things are really are really great tools. But would we even give them the time of day if we're in that mindset? Or do we. Do we need something else to. Like you said, you coach people.

And do we need that help as well at this stage?

I think so.

I think ideally, in an ideal world, somebody read that book and then come to me or to another coach and say, I just need further help, actually, because we can read, we can understand, we can learn, but I think sometimes you just need that person to hold up the mirror.

Yeah.

And to hold you accountable, too.

Yeah.

You know, this is. This is another thing, because I think people can think, oh, you're right. I've read.

I've read the book or I've read the information, we've had a chat and now I'm okay. But they haven't actually put in the foundations for themselves. And as Nick said, do the work and done that deep work.

Yeah.

I don't believe you can just fix it and say, well, I'm just going to think differently. That's My belief, you have to look inside and it's a heart led thing, not a mind led thing. For me, we've had this conversation before.

I think that our thoughts come from our feelings. Our feelings guide that. And so to correct, we need to be really understanding of what's going on with our feelings and how they turn into emotions.

And by doing that, as you start to understand, become more self aware, then you can start to correct that at source. Once you start to understand what the triggers are and what's really eating you.

Yeah. And that could be you engage with a professional coach or a professional therapist.

But I guess it could also be if you've got a good friend who's a good listener, is empathetic, who's not just going to solve your problem for you, but listen, maybe ask you some quite challenging questions, maybe. Yeah, it could be anybody, couldn't it? But asking for the help, I think to me is a key part of being on this stage of the ladder.

It is. And, and it's. It kind of leads neatly into the next stage, which is disengage.

Okay.

Because at this stage you're disengaging from the job, you're kind of disengaging from other people.

Yeah.

So one of the questions I ask in the survey around, are you avoiding social events?

Yeah.

You know, more than normal. Because. Yeah, some people are more sociable than others anyway, naturally. But I. Is, has your behavior changed socially?

Yes.

Because I think, you know, almost like the magic bullet, if there is one, is if you really are burnt out, if you've got to the end of that ladder, then talk to someone. Because. And that was my mistake that I wouldn't repeat again, which I didn't talk to anybody.

Right.

And I was seeing one client and he, he'd gone to the end of the ladder and he'd taken a few months off work and he said that he'd spoken to a previous guy who'd done his job. He was an operations director for a company and this guy had done his job before and he said, I just want to have a coffee with you.

And they had a chat and he explained his situation. And the guy just said to him, he said, well, I had exactly the same thing.

Yeah.

And he'd always held him up to be this paragon of calm and cool. He said, yeah, that might have looked like that, but I was really suffering inside.

And so the more you talk, the more you realize that other people are suffering, but they can also hold up that mirror, ask you those questions. And it's knowing what kind of help you need. Do I need a mind opener? Do I need somebody who can just put their arm around me and give me a cuddle?

Do I need somebody to make me laugh? It depends what you need. So there's a tool in there, and it's called Vital Friends, which is from a book by Tom Rath. If you know Tom Rath.

He also did Strengths Finder. But it's a very simple thing.

There are certain roles that people play for you, and if you look at these roles and some of them as I've described, is that the role you need or is that a gap in your life? And at this stage, you're going to need people. You are, even though your natural inclination is to pull away.

And then the final one, we get the final rung. Rung number six is embers, as in the embers of a fire, because the fire's dying at this stage. And this is really equated with depression.

So this is when you just. You don't want to get out of bed.

Yeah.

You know, you just want to stay under the duvet and hide. And you've just lost all guess of n go at all. And that's it. And that's when the ladder is close to collapsing.

Yeah.

And. And I would say that the book and the structure is all about, okay, recognizing that I'm on the way to burnout. So it's a burnout prevention tool.

But if you are burnt out, you can still use the tools. You know, there's stuff in there about, well, talk, you know, think about your sleep, what quality of sleep you're getting.

Can you learn to play again? You know, can you learn to stop taking life so seriously? Because I think we all take life too seriously these days.

And, you know, there are some just useful things that you can do to start to get you back down the ladder, you know, even if you really have burnt out.

Yeah. Okay.

Does that help?

I think it's really. Yeah, I mean, I think you've really described those six stages really, really well there.

So just to recap for anybody listening to this, so Alan has explained there are six stages on his burnout ladder ignition, which is the change event. Excitement, you know, mixed with nerves. But actually, this is. I think you made the point. This is the time to put the good habits in place.

And most people don't do it at this stage. You get acceleration, which is the next stage where the dopamine hits.

You get the validation from the people, you know, but actually the early signs of Negative self talk are starting to happen. Yeah, yeah. That should be a warning sign. If you don't take that warning sign, the next stage on the ladder is neglect.

When you stop looking after yourself. Yeah. Whatever that means for you.

Yeah.

And emotional friction in some way, shape or form starts to creep in. Yeah, yeah. That might be you just being grumpy with yourself, but it could be with everyone around you.

The next stage, fourth stage is cynicism, where you become irritable, negative, potentially detached from people. There's a narrowing of your bandwidth there.

You're almost like, as you said, I think you said we're looking so inward on yourself, you're not seeing what's around you.

Correct.

Yeah.

And then the fist stage disengage, the stress hormones have been depleted, you're socially withdrawn and you're feeling just quite overwhelmed with the whole of life, basically. And then sixth, I think, which is embers, what an image that conjures up. It's that complete emotional flatness, the despair, the exhaustion.

And as you said, it's almost depression at this point. Not a place that most people ever want to get anywhere near.

If only we could just learn to, at that ignition stage, you know, actually put the good habits in place, get the self awareness and then we. Maybe we wouldn't climb the ladder.

Exactly. And I think, you know, I've got a friend and he's always at ignition stage.

Okay.

Because it's a. It's a. It's a nice place to be. Because it's sort of this. Yeah, give me more, you know.

Yeah.

I enjoy my job, I enjoy my work.

I want, I want to deliver, you know, and this is not about stifling ambition, you know, this is about just getting yourself into the right frame of mind to be able to deliver what's in front of you. But without having to climb this ladder. There are. There's another ladder to climb, which is just, you know, a far more happy place to be.

Using your analogy. Because I was thinking about this when I was preparing for this conversation. So let's just say you are in ignition stage and you seem to think that.

Well, I answered the question. That's where I am at the moment. But there might be times when, you know, through things that we're doing, we get pushed into acceleration stage.

Is there a point that we can go back down the ladder rather than carrying, going up it? And I think that's the analogy that you've got, is you don't have to go up and up and up. You could actually catch yourself and go back down again.

Yeah, you're absolutely right. I think though, it's like those first two rungs. Yes. They're kind of interchangeable a little bit.

Right.

You know, but I think when you, once you get to the later rungs, you've got to jump off altogether. You know what I mean? Yeah.

So, but, but the thing you've got to be aware of is because, and to be realistic, it very often does happen to you again because if you haven't learned the lessons.

Yeah.

Hopefully you have and there's a good chance you have, but it could happen to you again because, you know, some, some of those old habits, they do die hard.

They do.

You know, some of those old like, you know, kind of programs that run within us that was talking about. It's very hard to change them, especially under pressure.

We revert to type under pressure.

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.

Okay. So Alan, thank you for describing the ladder.

I think it's really important that we just took our time going through that so that people who are listening could think, oh yeah, kind of, I recognise that in myself or I know somebody that I can see the signs and maybe there's a conversation I need to go and have with that person. Because it's not just about us. We can spot this in other people, can't we? And like you said, should we go and help other people?

It's part of who you are to go and help other people. It's part of who I am. And the human kindness would say, do we want other people to be going through this?

Well, no, you're right. And I think the answer is, should we be seeing it in other people? Yes, absolutely.

Yes.

And I think this is where, you know, that conversation around managers, are they equipped.

Yeah.

To see this?

Yeah.

This gives them a structure.

Yeah, yeah. So I, I want to sort of talk to you about another model that you talk about in the book, which I, I find quite fascinating.

Yes, the E equals MC squared resilience model. Yeah, I wonder where you've nicked that one from.

But I, I, I, I thought somebody done it before, you know, but I'm not sure it's copyrighted.

No, I'm not really. So just explain your thinking behind the E equals MC squared resilience model and how we would use that.

Yeah, well, actually I haven't really talked about this specifically in the book yet, but you wouldn't know because you haven't got there yet. This is more like a kind of a possibly a follow up.

Oh, yes.

So I'm still working on that. But the idea. This is something I've been thinking about and testing and. Yeah. So to be resilient, you need to have energy. You do, don't you?

You do, absolutely.

And if you don't have energy, the whole world looks like a very dark black place. Really. Yeah. So, But I suppose I came up with and backed into this equals MC squared.

Because I think, what are the three things that we really need to put into place? And I'm very big on mindset, and as I know you are.

Yes, absolutely.

And you and I have had this discussion before, but I think the foundation for us all is a calmness of our nervous systems.

Okay.

So I'll come on to that in a sec. Because it's almost like a pyramid. So calm is at the base, and that's the first C. Okay.

Yeah.

Then you've got mindset, so that's the M. And then you got the second C, the C squared, which is connection.

Okay.

So. And it's a bit like Stephen Covey and his 7 Habits of Highly Effective People.

Yeah.

Who basically said, work on yourself first.

Yeah.

Work on your independence. And then after that you can work on your interdependence. So it's almost like you go up this pyramid. So I'm all about going ladders or pyramids.

I like climbing. Maybe I should do more climbing. Anyway, so calm. Because what I mean by calm is in this world we live in, we're generally always stressed.

Yeah.

Our nervous systems are challenged. And by the nervous system, I mean the autonomic nervous system, which is when we get stressed, we go into fight or flight.

Yeah.

Mode.

Yeah.

And that's one part of the. The autonomic nervous system. The opposite side of that is what they call sometimes called rest and digest or feel and heal or whatever that is.

But it's like a. It's what we're supposed to be defaulting into most of the time.

Yeah.

And our fight or flight response is a, you know, hey, there's a.

There's a lion coming towards me, you know, and I'm around the campfire and we need to defend, you know, so that fight or flight should be like a wanton in a while thing. It's a great evolutionary advantage that we can just go click our fingers and we're ready to fight. But we seem to spend most of our lives like that.

Yeah. We see danger every day when there isn't really danger there.

Exactly. So my issue with mindset and a lot of this comes from my hypnotherapy. Training, which is all about.

And another analogy here, you know, the mind is like an iceberg.

Yeah.

It's the top 10% is the conscious mind, and the bottom 90%, you know, the dark bit below the water is the subconscious.

Yeah.

And we know that, you know, that's where all our memories are. We've never forgotten anything. It's all in there. All our beliefs, all our psychological problems, all our fears, they're all in there.

Yeah.

Okay. And unless we do the work to correct faulty programming, if you like, then the mindset changes we make above the surface will never actually stick.

No example is, you know, classic hypnotherapist things. Somebody's got a phobia. Right. It's not. It's not all about phobias.

Hypnotherapy is really useful for correcting bad habits of anxiety and the kind of tangles that we get into. It's really useful for that. But that's all about calming yourself so that you can then go down below and do the work.

Well, that's like. That's what you described earlier on, wasn't it? When you're having all these problems and you.

You were looking at what can help me, you discovered meditation and mindfulness, and that was the bit where you started to calm yourself enough to start doing the work on your mindset.

Right. That's it. Because mindset is dependent upon the model of the world that you see.

Yes. Yeah, absolutely.

And we see a very different world when we're calm, as to when we're stressed. Because when we're stressed, we see everything as a threat.

Was when we're not stressed, we see everything as an opportunity, and we're much more creative. So my job as a hypnotherapist is to get people into that state. And when I say state, I'm talking about brain state.

Yeah.

So, you know, the brain is like an electrical machine, and so there are pulses of electrical signals and. Stop me from teaching you to suck eggs here. But, you know, we generally operate at what's called a beta level, where you and I are talking.

We're a beta level. Now, when you relax and go into meditative state, your brain signals drop in frequency right down to what they call the theta state.

Right.

And if you're at that stage, then the brain starts to solve problems at a much deeper level.

Right, okay.

And starts to become much more creative about solving problems. So they're the same problems. You just got a different part of the brain working on it. Simple as that, really.

I presume that's why they say that if you are wanting to quiet your brain and what have you, if you do a little bit of meditation or mindfulness before you go to sleep, it allows your brain to do that work. Because it obviously does that work when you're asleep, doesn't it?

It does.

That's why it's so helpful to do it immediately before or a little way before you go to sleep.

It does, yeah.

Or even.

Before a big event.

Yeah.

And it might be on the morning. Let's say you. You've got a big meeting or something you go into. It's a big pitch or, you know, you've got something you need to do.

And if you meditate that morning, it'll clarify your mind for that day. You know, it's not just something that lasts for 10 minutes. It could last the whole day. Which I think is the beauty of it, really. But.

So my view is that this mental model of the world that we have can be altered and changed by getting into a different brain state.

Yeah, no, I get that. So the foundation of your. So the calmness comes first. It does get yourself into a state where your mindset can actually do the work.

Yeah, because. Yeah. And then work on the mindset.

Yeah, then work on it.

Yeah, exactly. So. And it doesn't have to be, you know, a big thing, but it's.

Rather than just think, well, I'm going to think more productively or I'm going to change my mindset. I think you have to be do this foundational, almost feeling work, you know, like, what does this feel like? And how am I feeling?

And can I calm this feeling down? And then the world just looks so different. So. And then you get into mindset.

So you get into things like, you know, cognitive behavioral therapy, which is around, you know, changing things at a surface level in the mind. And your perspectives do shift. So. And that's how I think you approach the world. I think you should approach the world in a resilient way.

And then the part that cannot be ignored is that we don't just exist in isolation.

Yeah.

You know, no one is an island. And so we are wired to connect. And I think that's why we're wired to burn out.

Because this thing about I need to please others, I need to be a useful part of the tribe.

Yeah.

I think it's within us to push ourselves slightly over that boundary, unfortunately. But we just cannot exist in isolation. So we have to learn how to connect with others.

So some of the things I talked about, how do I, I don't want to say use other people, but how do I leverage other people? And, and it's a two way thing. I can help other people too, but I want them to help me. So how do I know what kind of help I want?

What kind of emotional support do I need if this makes sense?

No, it does make sense.

I'm just thinking, you know, because I just think about, you know, when I'm talking to my kids, if my kids, because they haven't got necessarily an adult mind yet, they're 13 and 11, but whenever they are able to talk about stuff that's stressing them, life always seems a little bit easier because they've shared it. But I think that's the same for adults, isn't it?

I think so, yeah.

What worries me in the modern world, I think here, Alan, with this, and I think it is a big problem for resilience and what comes if we don't look after ourselves is that I think we've, without wishing to get too philosophical about it, we've lost connection. We've lost the ability to connect with ourselves first and foremost because we're just too busy too on. We're not giving ourselves the space.

We've lost connection with other people, you know, because in the old days when we didn't have all these things that we can now do, people used to sit around and just talk to each other and tell stories and you know, and there was communities. We've lost community, haven't we? To a certain extent, in how we live now. So people are a bit more isolated than they used to be.

Well, all of these things were there for a reason because they created connection.

I also think we've lost connection with nature and I think that's a big issue as well, you know, because if you now look at, if you're trying to sort of recover your health, either your physical health, your mental health or both.

One of the things a good doctor would tell you is not go and take all these pills, but actually get yourself out into the, into the open air, get some sunlight, get some fresh air.

Exactly.

This stuff is actually much more important and people realize it is. So that this thing about being connected. I think you're absolutely spot on for resilience.

We have to be connected to ourselves, connected to other people and connected to the wider world in which we live.

Agreed. And you touched on something there about connection with ourselves.

And I think that probably sits in the calm part for me because a lot of that is around self compassion too.

Yeah. Okay.

And so this thing we have where we beat ourselves up because we're not achieving what we need to be achieving and you know, our negative bias and the way we filter out the positive, you know, you, you tell me nine things I've done well today, and one thing I could have done better, and that one thing I could have done better is the thing I take home with me and go, oh, no, you know, why did I do that? You know? But I think a lot of it is about can you, can you shift your emotional reaction to that and start to be kinder to yourself?

Yeah, and I think we're lacking a bit of that as well.

Yeah, I agree.

Because I think, I think the world just feels like a tough place. It just, you know, the talk that you get from certain leaders in the world, you know, there's winners and losers and nobody wants to be a loser.

And it's almost like if I feel like I'm failing, then that's what I am. And I actually, most of the time I'm not. But I need to give myself some slack, some kindness, some, you know, bit of self love. Really?

Yeah, no, absolutely. So I guess just to recap what we're saying here, so using this model or this analogy that you use, E equals MC squared.

So we all want as much energy as we can possibly get. Because without energy, you know, our resilience just doesn't really last, does it? It collapses around us.

So, yes, it's the obvious things like we need to sleep, we need to take a bit of time off and rest. I think you said we need to regulate our nervous system so it's not always on and always scanning for danger all the time.

Right.

How do we do that? Well, the first thing is we got to get our calm.

So whether it's mindfulness, whether it's just some simple breathing techniques, anything that grounds you is a good starting point. I think you used, when I first spoke to you, a snow globe metaphor. I was like, rather than it just being snow everywhere.

Yeah, let it settle, let it settle. So I think it's a brilliant analogy. I told you, you're good at these analogy.

Thank you.

Yeah, so I remember. And that gives you the foundation then to do the work on your mindset. So the next bit is mindset.

And I think you said to me, it's only accessible after we've got ourselves more calm. We can look at those cognitive patterns, we can look at all those ruminations, we can identify those narratives. We're telling ourselves.

We can start to see different perspectives Other than the only one that's driving us. And then obviously beyond that is how do we connect to other people to get the help we want or to share?

I think that that is a really good way of looking how to be more resilient.

Well, thank you.

Yeah.

Like I say, it's kind of a relatively new kind of thought and adaptation for me, But I just. Based on my experience, and I do think mindset is so important.

Yeah.

If you think about an analogy of a house being built, I think the foundations are the calm, if you like, and maybe the house structure is the mindset, and maybe the roof on top is the. Is the connection that kind of keeps it all protected. That's the way I'm thinking about it.

And yeah, I mean, a lot of the tools are exactly the same, but I'm trying to make it simple, trying to help people with not so. With not forgetting what they should do to look after themselves. Because the risk is you've got 18 tools in a book. Which one do I use?

You know, Exactly. You know, I'd rather it was three.

Yeah.

But three, that really mean something to you?

You know, why do you think what gets in the way of people reconnecting when they most need to do it? Because when we're climbing that ladder, that's the point when we need to think, we need to reconnect.

Whether it's reconnect with ourselves, reconnect with other people, reconnect with nature. All of the above. Yeah. What stops us doing that?

I think there's a number of reasons. I think that when we get into this tangle, I remember the way you're thinking at the time.

You know, if you're in that cynicism stage, for example, or in that disengage stage, that your brain's just working really hard to try and get you out of the problem.

Yeah. Survival.

It is survival.

Yeah.

And the brain steps in and says, well, this is something we need to fix. And what it does, apparently, I've read and told, is that it actively dampens down your desire to do things that you like to do.

Yeah. Okay.

Which is a cruel twist of evolution because it's saying, well, yeah, so if you like playing football, you shouldn't really like that as much because you've got something else you need to worry about. But actually playing football is probably exactly what you need to do.

Yeah.

So it's kind of like that paradox. How did we evolve like that? You know, But I think.

I think it's because, you know, in the modern world, and we're talking about the modern world the last 50 years or so or 100 years. We've got the same brain that we had thousands, tens of thousands of years ago.

Yeah.

It's slow to evolve, even though it's fantastically sophisticated as an organ. So I think there's that. So. And also I just think there's a little bit around we become a little bit ashamed and afraid of showing weakness.

Yeah, yeah.

You know that. That bit we said about, well, if I talk to somebody, will they. Will they put a mark on my personnel file or something that I can't hack it?

And maybe we don't even want to look bad to our friends or whoever it is in the family, because I've got pride and I want to look like I'm doing well.

Yeah.

And that's ego.

Yeah.

So I think ego gets in the way.

Yeah. Yeah. We need to be a bit more humble here, don't we?

I think we do.

Yeah.

The ego drives an awful lot of our problems.

Well, Rich and I have talked, you know, we've made a few videos for our new program, and we were talking about this today. The death of confidence is usually comparing yourself with other people. It's really not helpful at all.

And I think it's the same thing here you're talking about in terms of not getting burnt out and being resilient. Stop comparing yourself to everybody else. Yeah. Because actually their lives are not the perfect life that they may look like from the outside anyway.

No, they're not.

They're not, are they? No.

But it's hard, isn't it?

It is hard.

It is hard because you also have to measure yourself, don't you? Otherwise, how do you know how you're doing? So, you know.

But if you do measure yourself, then you're going to end up in that comparison state that you just talked about. So.

Yeah.

Not always the best policy.

So connection, really important. I totally agree. So, Alan, how do we help somebody rebuild connection?

Because we've talked about important connection is when they're at this sort of the higher ends of the burnout ladder, particularly disengage or ember stage. But probably before that, how do we help them build connection? Because I think. Or rebuild connection. It's so vitally important.

Yeah. And I think you're really kind of swimming against the tide because they don't want to speak to anybody at this stage.

And even though it's so obvious you need to talk to somebody, they go, yeah, yeah, yeah. But they're holding their hand up, saying, I'm not in that space.

So you kind of twist it round another way and say, let's talk about the problems you've got, whatever they might be, and it might be with your job or some aspect of your life. And then you say, there's a model which is around the different types of emotional support you need or just support.

And emotional support is one of them. Right. And so you say, well, what aspect? What. What problem have I got? You break the problem down into chunks.

So it's a bit of a problem solving thing, but. And then say, okay, what kind of support do I need?

Right.

From someone else.

Right.

So. And it could be emotional support.

It could be something called informational support, which is, what kind of information do I need to help me solve this problem? Who can give me that?

Yes.

Yeah.

So you start to get people to engage with other people, not just for the sake of talking to other people, because some people just think it's pointless.

Yeah.

But talk about a problem you've got and say, okay, can we get somebody to connect with you to do this? And there's this psychological model with four different types of support.

And I think that's a really good way of doing it because you can work through that with them as a coach and get them to write, fill out a grid to say, this is an aspect of a problem and this is a type of support I think I need.

Yeah.

And this is the person I'm going to ask to do it, and this is what I want them to do, you know, so you follow it through and be really, really specific. Yes. So I think that's one way of doing it.

Okay. Yeah. Because you said it is quite hard. People don't at this point, to actually reach out and ask for help is really quite challenging, isn't it?

Really?

It is. But also testimonials, I guess, where people see other people who've been through this and got out of it by talking. So I mentioned that.

That guy before, he talked to his old. His old operations director, you know, I did a podcast with him last year and he talked about that if people see that and they see this person that.

And they might not know that he's gone through that either. They go, oh, my God, you know, so I've got permission to talk about.

Which is exactly why I wanted you on the podcast today, because, you know, there's so many leaders. As I said it, with those stats at the beginning of this. This podcast or episode one of this podcast, there are so many people struggling.

You're not in the minority here. You're probably in the majority.

Quite right.

Okay. Not everyone's at the top end of the ladder.

Yes.

But most people are on it somewhere.

I think so too.

Yeah. So just to get very practical, to sort of wrap this up, Alan, sort of practical tools and habits.

Just maybe at two or three top tips that you'd say, actually if any of this has resonated with anybody listening today, what would be your top tips or habits to leave people thinking about?

Well, I think that.

If we feel.

That we're going to burn out, the first thing you need to do is decide how to create time for yourself.

Right.

Because this is the classic situation. People are working too hard, they don't have time to take a break, even if it's five minutes.

Yeah.

So a top tip actually is if you're working on a number of things and you feel like you haven't got enough hours in the day, you probably have. Right. But you need to do this, which is don't just keep working because the longer you work, the less productive you become.

So there's something called a pomodoro method. I have yet 25 minutes on and then five minutes break.

Yeah.

And what I would recommend is that in that five minutes you do something completely unrelated. You get away from your desk. It could be a meditation exercise. It could be do some push ups.

Yeah, yeah.

Take a quick walk around the block or around the building, whatever it is, but in that five minutes, get away and then go back and do something else, you know, or finish the task that you were on. Yeah. Single tasking is really important too. Multitasking really drives us into the ground.

Absolutely.

It's not efficient and makes us more stressed.

Absolutely. It does. Yeah.

Okay. I think manage your perfectionism.

So in the book, there's a questionnaire that I devised I built on somebody else's work around Perfectionism was an excellent book. And I can't remember the lady's name off the top of my head, but I've referred to her in there, which is like a understanding perfectionism workbook.

Super, super thing. Because it is important. Because it's not just about I am a perfectionist, it's I am setting myself up for failure.

Yeah, yeah.

Or setting myself up for disappointment. Perhaps if I put it that way. So there's that there's. Make sure you have a variety of things that you do.

Yeah.

Make sure that your life becomes not just one thing, but that you exercise as well as work, that you find time to do the things that you Love. And all this sounds kind of patently blatantly obvious, but this is what people stop doing.

Yeah. Common sense isn't common practice. I've said this before on the podcast.

That's right.

Yeah.

And I feel the same silly saying all that stuff because it's just so obvious, but people just forget to do it or they just feel like they don't have the time or don't need to. They do need the time. You can't just keep going at this and keep bashing your head against a brick wall.

I think the other thing is, you know, I'm obviously big on the mindfulness aspect and doing that work on yourself, which is deeper.

Yeah.

You know. Yeah.

And so that you change your mental models of the world, but also just think, if you really are up against it, what can I control versus what can I not control?

Yeah.

And a simple exercise in there called Circles of Control, Another Stephen Covey thing.

Yeah.

Which is taking a. What might be a huge to do list and focus. Absolutely. On what's in your own backyard.

Yeah.

A lot of people spend a lot of time worrying about things that are out of their control. They do. And lose energy.

Yeah.

As a result of that.

Absolutely.

So, yeah. And I think, you know, like I said a number of times now, I think one of the key things is talk.

Talk. Yeah.

Talk to someone.

On that very note, if someone thinks, actually, I would like Alan's help, just briefly explain what the typical coaching journey, if someone comes to you, they're on the ladder. They know they're on the ladder. Not quite sure maybe where they are on the ladder.

You can help them with that because they can fill your questionnaire in. Yeah. But what does a typical coaching journey with you?

Look, if they want your help, it's generally three sessions.

Okay.

So the first thing is to say, okay, yeah. Fill out the questionnaire. You can find out pretty quickly if you're on the ladder or not.

Okay.

And then the. I guess the first proper coaching session would be, you know, how do we get here?

Right.

You are here. How did we get here? What's been driving you here?

Yeah.

The second one is, okay, what are the things you need to do to get you off?

Yeah.

And then the final one is, how do we keep you off? Okay. So in other words, how can I help you coach you into putting the right habits in place that mean you stay healthy?

Bearing in mind that probably your natural, as we've said, your natural reaction is to default to type when you're under pressure.

Yeah.

And when you do that, you might end up doing the same things that you did before.

Yeah. Okay. So if people want to find out more about you and the work you do, I presume you have a website that they can.

I do, yeah.

Which is.

Well, I've got. You can follow me at www.rightmindfulness.co.uk. I've also got a new domain called the burnout ladder.com.

Yeah.

So either way, that would get to me.

You're on LinkedIn.

LinkedIn, of course. And Instagram, Facebook, all those.

He's everywhere.

Apart from. I'm not on X.

No. Okay.

Well, I think I used to be, but I'm not now.

But. So we'll put those links in the podcast anyway, so if anybody thinks, oh, I can't remember all the links, but they're going to be in there.

So if you're on Spotify, Apple or wherever else you're listening to the podcast, go and look for those links or just look for Alan Musket, M U S K E double T on LinkedIn. I would recommend, highly recommend, whether you're thinking you're burnt out or not. Read the book. The book is fantastic, Alan.

You know, it's not just for people who are burnt out. I think there's a. So many lessons for all of us in there. So much. And you're great at storytelling. I think it's a really, really good book. Thank you.

So available at all good bookshops?

Well, yes, almost.

Almost.

So it's on Amazon.

Right.

But I've also made it available and you could go into a Waterstone store.

Okay.

And get them to order it in.

Okay.

But they probably aren't stocking it yet.

Oh, okay. Why not?

I don't know. But no, it's. It's selling quite a few now. The sales have really picked up, so I'm very proud of it. The reviews are good.

Thank you for making the comments you've made. So.

Yeah.

Nobody's told me it's terrible yet.

No, it's not. It's not. It's very, very good. So the Burnout Ladder, how to Thrive in a Chaotic Workplace is well worth a read.

And as you said, you know you've got the right book because it's got a ladder that's on fire on the front cover.

That's right, yeah.

Yeah, you described earlier on.

And one. One client reviewed it and he got in touch with me and he said the thing that Drew. Drew him to it was the title.

Okay.

Because like he said, there are lots of books on Burnout there at the moment. But what I think is, is unique. And your copy doesn't have this.

Right.

So I've got a little kind of flash sticker on it now which will get printed out with the book.

Right.

But it says get your free personalized report from the author.

Right. Okay.

And I don't think of anybody else that's doing that.

No.

Now once I start selling millions of copies that could be, and I get millions of, you know, questionnaires in, I might need to go to AI or have an army of people providing analysis and reports, but I'm not quite there yet.

That'd be a nice problem to have though, wouldn't it?

It would be a very nice problem,.

But I think it's a really important topic. We need to build awareness of this and your book certainly helps us do that.

I hope a lot of businesses engage with you, get you in, get you talking to them about this because it's clearly a big issue. So, Alan, thank you so much.

This conversation, I think has been really rich, really practical over the two episodes that we've had here for our listeners. If you wish to explore your own place on the burnout ladder, please engage with Alan through his websites through LinkedIn.

His book is a valuable resource. The questionnaire is a really valuable resource.

And if this conversation has resonated with you, please share it with someone you might know needs to hear it. And I'm sure you will know somebody.

But thanks once again for joining us and I'll be back again with the Connected Leadership podcast in a week or so's time. But for now, thank you very much.

Thank you.

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