Seeing the World Differently – Why young leaders need a voice | #37

Welcome to Unleash youh Impact Unlock Others, a podcast about inspiring leadership. We hope to bring you grounded wisdom, stories from real leaders, and leave you feeling inspired. Let's dive in.

So welcome to Unleash youh Impact, Unlock Others. My name is Dave Morris, and today we have a Voices of Leadership episode with a little bit of a difference.

My daughter Millie, who is now 11, was diagnosed as dyslexic in the last 12 months. And that's really opened my eyes to people who see the world differently.

Probably needed slightly different things from us, and it got me thinking about how leaders deal with people in their teams who see the world differently.

And then I met a wonderful young lady who I'm going to talk to today, Daisy, who's written a book, which we'll get into, about Pixo, the neurodivergent dog.

But I want to talk to Daisy about how somebody who's coming into the world of work now, how they see the world, how they see leadership, what they want from leadership. So, Daisy, welcome to the podcast. How are you?

I'm good, thanks.

Good. Now, I talked about where I met you. You went through a program with my colleague Beryl Cuckney, called Be youe Own Boss.

And out of that program, you've decided you want to be an advocate for neurodiversity and inclusiveness in the workplace. And Rich and I talk very much about inclusive leadership. How can we make sure that everybody feels safe, feels welcome, feels trusted?

So I think this is a really important topic for me, and it's clearly a really important topic for you.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And then you've written this book, Pixo the Adventures of a Neurodiverse Dog. Where did that idea come from?

Okay.

But he didn't really know. I thought, oh, he's got some neurodivergent traits. And has he got, like, autism or something? Because he doesn't like wearing it.

I didn't know anything else. But I knew that he had some really interesting stories and things, because I remember him when I was younger.

Yeah.

And I guess I'm assuming that now when you've written the book, you're using some of your own experiences to inform the story.

I'm using quite a lot of his experiences, though, because he used to. Because I'm basing it on a real dog.

He used to actually escape from the garden to walk down the lane and actually go to the farm and through the cat flap. An insight to the book. But yeah. And then the bit that I use about myself is more the dyslexia part.

Right.

Of it. The rest of it was really based on him.

Yeah.

And we'll get into dyslexia a bit later because I said my daughter was diagnosed.

And I think what I've realized as a parent is you do have to parent slightly differently, adjust the way that I help her, because there's certain things that she finds difficult that I probably wouldn't. So I have to be mindful of that. And I think leadership's the same. If we have people in.

And we will have people in our businesses that are neurodivergent, Pretty sure of that. What do they need that's slightly different from what we need? Need it? Do we understand that?

And I think that's one of the things I'm going to explore with you this morning. Yeah. So, Daisy, I read your book with my daughter Millie. She absolutely loved it. And I think she loved it for two reasons.

One is actually she recognized some of the traits that Dixa the dog has in herself, but she just loves animals as well. And it was a story about an animal. And, you know, what kid doesn't love an animal? So she found it really, really fun to read, I think.

But you've also written the book in a way that parents can also benefit, and you've given some prompts for parents or adults that are helping children with neurodiversity. Questions we ought to be asking them, things we ought to be thinking about.

So there is help in there for somebody who's supporting somebody with neurodiversity as well, isn't there? Which is great.

Yeah.

So this episode is about how Daisy sees the world and what we can learn as friends, as colleagues, and as leaders in our businesses. So, Daisy, do you want to just tell me about your experiences growing up?

What was it like growing up and finding out that you were neurodivergent and what challenges did you face?

Well, the world was challenging because I didn't really understand it, and I had lots of issues that other people didn't seem to have, but I didn't really notice that I was different. I was just myself. But I did find now, thinking back, I had a sensory issue to like certain smells. I eat oranges. I wouldn't.

People couldn't have them near me or anything, so I had a high sensitive smell. And also I didn't really like certain. Lots of trying new foods. But one food I did like was baked beans. And I'd often have them in everything.

So one thing that was my favorite was a baked bean pizza. I just don't know. Liked it and thought it was really a hearty meal.

Yeah.

But making friends was confusing for me because I didn't really understand their facial expressions, body language, tone of voice and what to say to them. So I just would often spend most of the time on my own.

Okay.

But being dyslexic made it really hard for me to read in the classroom. I wouldn't read, but my verbal skills were really good.

Yeah.

And one book I do remember reading when I was a child was Daisy and the Trouble with life. I was 11 years old when I read this book. But yeah, it was aimed at five year olds, so it was a bit below my age level, but I enjoyed reading it and.

Yeah. How ironic. It was called Days of Struggle with Life. Yeah. Yeah.

I found my life not as easy as other people's, but I just didn't really understand that it was different. Really.

Yeah.

It's interesting that the sensory thing, I mean, I think with my daughter it's more about light, bright lights and stuff.

Yeah.

And background noise. She struggles sometimes with background noise. So I guess everybody who's neurodiverse experiences dyslexia slightly differently, don't they?

It's not the same for every person. That's what I'm saying.

Yeah. That's what we've got to remember is it's all like you said, Dave, it's all very individual.

So it's like your fingerprint really, like having neurodivergency. If you know one person with neurodivergency, you know one person with neurodivergency. Really?

Yeah.

Because I've not got very good because of my adhd. I'm not very good at like sometimes listening or hearing things very well.

But I know other people who have got autism are very good at that type of thing. They've got a really hypersensitive hearing.

Yeah.

And things. So it's that type of thing. And it's trying to portray that in a book and with leadership. Really.

How does ADHD manifest itself for you? What challenges did that give you growing up?

Well, I didn't really know, I was ADHD until I was like, in my late 20s, really.

Okay.

And then I. Now looking back, I remember thinking in the classroom, I was my own biggest distraction. So it was like that type of thing.

I used to forget things or wouldn't pay attention to people when they were talking to me. I'd zone out halfway through.

Okay.

Or I'd have to interrupt people when they were talking because I needed to get it out. Otherwise I'd just forget it.

Yeah.

So those are the types of traits that I had growing up.

But obviously those are. Those are challenges. If you don't.

If you don't know that you are neurodiversion, you don't know why you find those things difficult and why somebody else doesn't. I guess that can be quite confusing, can't it?

I guess it can be, but it's just me, so I don't really know any difference. So it's just how I am. And you just. I'm just learning to adapt to who.

I am and things.

That's probably the best way to look at it. And I think that's. That's the point, isn't it? It's just you. And you are great. And I said this to Millie, my daughter. You just. It's just you.

You are great. It doesn't. It doesn't mean you're any better or worse than anybody else.

It's just you.

But she has a load of strengths as well. I mean, my daughter is brilliant creatively. She's like you. She's very good verbally. She can verbalize with some great vocabulary.

So she's got a huge amount of strengths. And I said to her, that's actually, you need to make the most of those things.

Yeah.

Not worry about the things that you find a bit more challenging.

But I guess if we have people who find things challenging in our businesses, in our lives, we just need to be a bit more compassionate about what help they need if they struggle with something. I think that's the message I'd like leaders to take away from this conversation today. Do you find that that happens? Do you find people do.

Are compassionate? They do make adjustments.

I think once you're open about your neurodivergency, I think leaders are more understanding about you because sometimes they can think you're doing something, not being polite or being very slow at something, because that's just you. But actually it's because of your neurodivergency, you struggle with certain things.

Once leaders understand that people are neurodivergent, and also understanding that individual person, that they actually are part of the team and they're different and they have different strengths. So if you really treat them really nicely, then they will be loyal employees and things.

That's the key thing is to remember they're actually probably more loyal than, as you say, neurotypical people because they want to do the best and they put in 110% a lot of the time into their work.

So actually if we make the effort to sit down with them, understand them, understand where their strengths are, understand where they find they've got some challenges. You've probably got a really, really loyal, probably really productive employee there. Yeah, we've got to put that effort in in the first place.

Yeah. And that's the most important thing is to put the effort in and to understand the individual.

And sometimes the individual might change their needs and things and it's. They're very difficult to keep that as a leader because you've probably got so many people on your team that you've got to look after and things.

One individual is quite hard to look after, I guess.

Yeah.

So, Daisy, let's talk about strengths. What strengths do you think being neurodivergent gives you?

It gives me. I'm very like determined. So I really wanted to write a book and that is what I wanted to do from quite a young age. So it's. Yeah, that type of thing.

I'm strong willed and I'll never give up. Even though I found English really difficult at school, there was one teacher who was really kind to me and she understood me and was really patient.

So then I wrote a card to her and said, I like English and for me that's a very big thing for a person who hated it, wouldn't do well in it. And then I'm very creative in the kitchen because of my food intolerances such as dairy and gluten, just to name a few.

And I just make up these recipes in my head. I don't follow a recipe book because that's just like if I follow it one day and I follow it the next day, it'll just be two different meals anyway.

And it doesn't matter if anyone else doesn't like the meal because I like it. So that's to me, that's all that matters really.

You're speaking to somebody who. I do all the cooking in my house as well and I often don't use recipes either. My wife will say to me, how do you know what to put into a recipe?

I said, you Just kind of know. And actually sometimes I experiment, you know, you kind of know what goes with what. Yeah, no, I don't necessarily have to follow a recipe.

I think that creative side, just being comfortable with trying new things, that's actually really good, isn't it?

Yeah.

And yet other strengths you can think.

Of that you have that I just keep trying new things and going out of my comfort zone all the time.

I guess you're happy to push yourself.

Push myself? Yeah. I go out of my comfort zone all the time. Even if I go to work every day, it's because I'm a different person. I might have my ADHD side.

I might show more on my autistic side. I don't know how I'm going to present at work. So it's kind of that type of thing.

Yeah.

And you have to always adapt and.

Yeah.

How have you built your confidence then? That's an interesting. Because a lot of people aren't confident whether they're neurodiverse or not. Confidence is a big thing for a lot of people.

How have you built your confidence?

I just think I've always been quite confident. I guess when I was little and all that about talking to people and things. I don't really know.

Maybe because I went to drama and did drama school when I was little and maybe that gave me the confidence, but I'm not really too sure why I've got the confidence. And just if you've got something that you want to do, you just will achieve it and keep going. I think it's never being afraid to do something.

Yeah.

So you've got, as you said, that. That persistence, that internal drive, it's got natural in you.

Yeah, yeah.

And actually that. That overrides everything else I get, I'm guessing. Is it.

Although there's a few things you find challenging, these strengths that you're talking about override that and drive you forward.

Yeah, they do. They drive me forward. And it's having a team behind you with people who help you and all that type of thing. And it's.

Yeah, yeah.

So another question I was going to ask you is nowadays it seems that a lot more people are being diagnosed as neurodiverse. Why do you think that is? Is it a case that there weren't as many people who were neurodiverse before? Is it just because we got greater awareness?

What do you think the reasons are?

I guess it's because we've got more. Greater awareness in classrooms and in workplaces. They understand more about it and look out for it a little bit, I guess.

And social media has played a big part, especially like when TikTok came out, people were watching these videos and think, I might have some of these traits. And then it was mainly men and boys who used to get diagnosed, because that's what we thought the traits were.

But now it's more women and girls are being more diagnosed and things, because the traits are very slightly different to them and they're very good at masking things. So that kind of.

Yeah, they do say that girls can be quite good at masking some of these traits, don't they? Whereas boys don't.

Yeah.

Or we might think it's something different.

Yeah.

So, Daisy, this book, Pixo Escapes, which is a lovely book, really well written, and I said my daughter loved reading it with me. You've got a book launch coming up, haven't you, in September. Just tell us about that.

The book launch is in Malvern, Worcestershire, at the book cooperative on September 20th at 2 to 4pm Come and join me and see and then get all your books signed.

Anybody living in Worcestershire? Yeah, definitely. Go meet Daisy, get yourself a copy of her book and get it signed.

Or just come for a chat, really, if you need to know a bit more about neurodivergency or something.

Yeah.

Because you want to be the advocate, don't you, to help people understand more about neurodiversity.

Yeah. As well as just the book kind of doing that for me, really, as well.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I guess you've already answered the question. Why did you write about dogs? You have this dog in your life that you thought, I wonder if he's neurodivergent. And I guess that's why the book is.

The characters are all dogs in the book.

Yeah. And one of the reasons I wanted the character to write about Pix is just for his legacy.

Whenever he passes away or anything, we've got the book out there, really. And it's just remember him because he's such a special dog in our lives.

What I really found interesting and quite touching was Pixo's donut. Tell us a little bit about Pixo's donut.

Well, my sister bought him a toy donut and he just used to take it to bed with him when he was in real life. So it just kind of happened that he's was obsessed with it and things.

So, yeah, that's how he's got his donut and things, because autistic people often like carrying something around with them to comfort them. So he carries his donut to give him comfort and give him confidence as well. And don't be afraid to take something with you that you need as comfort.

That's interesting, because my daughter has a stuffed hippo whose name is actually Hippo, funnily enough. And I can tell sometimes when she needs comfort because hippo will suddenly appear and we'll be cuddled. That does make sense.

Yeah.

So that is something we need to remember. Anybody who has autistic traits, what do they need in terms of comfort when they're not feeling quite themselves?

How should we adjust to people who need that bit of comfort?

That is a great question, because it's not really something that I could answer because it's such a big, wide thing. Because some neurodivergent people love cuddles when they're in that type of situation. Some will hate it. Having to know.

It's all about learning the individual and knowing what they like and what they don't like. And that's especially when leaders in workplaces or in life, because you're a leader of your own life type thing.

So it's understanding the individual and what works for them and being patient with them. And sometimes you may get it right, and sometimes you may get it wrong. And that's okay.

Yeah. Yeah.

Don't be afraid of it, I think, is a good message, isn't it? But that's probably true of, you know, taking that individual approach should be to all human beings, whether they're neurotypical or neurodiverse.

I think we should adopt that approach to everybody, really, because everybody's an individual, aren't they?

Yeah, that's correct.

Yeah.

So in terms of when you were writing the book, what challenges did that present you based on the fact that you have autism and dyslexia? What challenges did that present to you?

Well, the challenges that I had, especially being adhd, was like keeping on track. I just would go days without writing or weeks without even thinking about my book.

Right.

But then being dyslexic, it makes actually writing the book really hard because I would go from past tense to present tense to future tense. I didn't have a clue what tenses I was writing in. So I had to go back to basics with that. And I'm not afraid to go back and go to basics with things.

And, yeah, it was that type of thing. And then knowing how to actually structure the book, knowing what to do and how to get the book out there.

So it's having a team behind me really has made a big difference to how I've written my book and everything. And it's not listening, I guess, to other people saying, oh, your book's not going to do well and all that.

You've got to be determined to go, yeah, okay, he's going to do well and you're going to do the best you can with it, I guess, and be light picks and just go for it.

Well, I suspect based on what I know about you already, you're quite a determined young woman. So I suspect you will make this a success because you're determined to do so, aren't you? And I think in life we have to sometimes just go for it.

Just what's the worst that could happen?

Because this passion now you've discovered, obviously, your neurodiversity, this passion for being an advocate and getting this message out, where do you want to take that in the future?

I want to get the books out into, like, mainly schools and into educational settings so people can understand more about neurodiversity because they don't have time in classrooms to teach that. So it's just a good book for like reading time and things.

And in the future, I want to write a series of Pixo Escapes books just because he's had so many adventures and there's so many more tales I can tell.

Yeah, but then discovering this and then discovering my challenges with the workplace as I work in like a supermarket, the managers keep changing, so I have to keep adapting and keep telling the managers the same things about my neurodiversity. I want to write more books about Pixar, going on workplaces to different works, and then him, how he struggles, maybe in a book or in a work pack.

Yeah.

So then it makes it easier for people, because that's what I don't want is people to struggle at work because it's not fair, because life is hard enough for neurodivergent people.

Yeah, that's a good point.

And as you said, if the people around you in the workplace are changing, they have to learn all about you and what you need, and you have to learn all about them and who they are. What about the message for children?

So we'll talk about leaders again in a minute, but there might be people listening to this who have got children who they might know are neurodivergent or they might suspect are. What messages would you say? What's important for children to be aware of so the people listening can get these messages to their children?

Well, it's to be more understanding of other children. Just accept you're different and accept other people's differences, and they're just who they are. They're individuals.

So they might be doing something different to you, but that's okay.

And then in my book Pixel Escapes, there's a section called Facts in the back, which is a guide to help teachers and parents to tell the kids, if they want to, the information about neurodivergency.

Yeah, I thought that was a really good section at the end where you've got these help. Yeah, that's really helpful, I think, because, you know, not all parents will be aware of how to help a child who is neurodivergent.

It certainly opened my eyes.

I mean, obviously I got a report from the school when the diagnosis had been done, and it's a great big, long report also, and you have to read through it. And that opened my eyes in terms of, okay, yeah, I definitely need to tweak the way I parent.

There's probably some tolerance and some patience I need to have here, which I hadn't even thought of before. So. Yeah, and that's something I'm still learning, if you see what I mean.

But I think your point about actually just normalizing it as well, it's not that. Okay, there may be some things these people find challenging that I don't find challenging, but that's just normal for them.

And I think the more we normalize this, the better. Is that correct?

I think so, yeah. And it's just learning that we have to adapt to everyone anyway. Everyone's different and individual.

So why do we need to keep everyone in a box and things?

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Great message. That's a great message. So let's talk about your views of leadership in terms of the business environment.

What do you think the impact of more and more people being diagnosed as neurodivergent has on the business community and leadership? How do you think that affects the workplace?

They need to understand more about neurodivergency because it's becoming more prevalent in the workplaces and things.

It's understanding your employees, but also it's understanding the customers because more and more customers and clients will be neurodivergent, understanding their needs and things. It's just learning to be adaptable.

I guess, as a leader, it's always never afraid to sometimes go up to someone if you think they're doing something different and speak to them in a way that works for them.

Yeah.

And you might have to learn what that is like. And you talked about your persistence and your drive and your creativity. And that sounds quite entrepreneurial.

And I wonder whether there's quite a lot of people who are entrepreneurial. I mean the famous people like Richard Branson is famously dyslexic.

Is there something in actually people who have neurodiverse traits and being entrepreneurs?

Yeah, well, entrepreneurs, we don't really fit into the box of work. We often think outside of it. So we want to. We always have a problem.

Often a problem to solve maybe comes from personal experience or someone else that we know. And traditional jobs don't always work for us at a 9 to 5 may not work for people because they like to.

Especially if you're adhd, you like to do different things, different times. And then we have unique, we have unique skills and talents that the workplace might not highlight.

So we often have great ideas and we can be very driven and hyper focused when it comes to business and things.

But me having dyslexia and ADHD and autism, I just wanted to write a book and things and I was just driven to do it and I guess, yeah, and people are neurodivergent entrepreneurs because they just want to do well in life and do the best that they can and be their own leaders in life.

Yeah, but those, those entrepreneurial traits, I mean, not everybody will want to start their own business and, and what have you.

They might want to join an existing business, but they can still bring that entrepreneurial traits that, that innovation, that creativity, that drive, that hyper focus that you were talking about. Because that sounds to me like things that most businesses could do with.

Yeah, but I think they need to listen to and things and actually work out what their skill sets are and understand them a bit more if you're working in a traditional job type thing, because a lot of them don't as leaders need to be a bit more patient and actually follow what they say they're going to do.

So Daisy, obviously this is a leadership podcast and what Rich and I are trying to do is help people understand how to best lead in this really, you know, quite interesting world we now live in.

As somebody who's a lot younger than me and will see the world probably quite different from me and maybe to many people listening to this podcast, how do you see leaders from your perspective?

And I don't just mean people in the public political world or sporting world or what have you, but also from your own experiences, how do you see leadership and what do you want different from leadership that you don't see at the moment?

Well, what we want from leadership that I don't see now is we want people to be more understanding and more adaptable and just, I don't know, take everyone for who they are and not always have to fit them into a box just because they do. Just because someone else does the same job doesn't mean they're going to do it the same.

They may have to learn differently, they may communicate differently. It's just accepting people for who they are and that type of thing.

And do you see enough of that at the moment in leaders, or do you think there's a lot more to do?

I guess there's a lot more to do because of all sorts of regulations they have to stick to. So it's hard for them to keep individual people together because they have targets to meet.

And often neurodivergent people are very unpredictable in the way that they behave sometimes, so they're not always going to present the same every day. So it's not very easy for business sense to have someone like that. But then you have them as they're very loyal. So it's.

I was going to say, but I guess everybody's got strengths and weak points, haven't they? Whoever we are, we've all got that. But I think the point you made, yes, okay, People have got targets to meet.

They've got things they need to deliver to customers.

There's a whole lot of issues we need to deal with, but that shouldn't be at the cost of not taking more care and compassion and understanding for our people. I think, again, whether they're neurodivergent or not, I think that's really important, isn't it? That's the message you're saying here.

Yeah.

So Daisy, Richard and I on this podcast have talked before about the importance of leaders having purpose. Probably any human being having a sense of purpose. Now, you've mentioned you're 29, you've got some plans for some more books.

But what's the bigger picture for you? What would you like to achieve and what's your sense of purpose?

I'd like to achieve, especially with my books, is to get them into schools so then the kids can grow up to be adults and they can be more understanding of neurodivergency and the differences that people have. So then it makes it easier for these type of people in the workplace to just work.

And then they don't have as many barriers to face in life because life's hard enough being not neurodivergent. And being neurodivergent can add extra difficulties. I guess that's where I want things to go.

So we can see Daisy getting into schools, talking to kids, educating kids.

Yeah, and educating the workplace. Really a bit more about it, but more in educational packs and things like that than just going to talk to them.

That sounds fantastic. I mean, we definitely need more of that.

So, Daisy, anybody listening to this podcast, what can they do to help you and get this message out there to a much wider audience?

Well, first thing, they could love and accept themselves and others and their differences, like Pixo does. And you could buy the book. So then you share it with as many people as possible. So spread the word.

So you've read the book, give it to someone else to read the book. So then it's being shared out there.

Absolutely, yeah. I would wholeheartedly recommend any parent to get a copy of Pixo Escape. So I enjoyed reading it. But, yeah, it's educational as well.

And that's the point. It's not just enjoyable, it's educational. Daisy, in the book, we talked about the donut, and Pixo takes his donut everywhere he goes.

Is there something that you can't leave the house without? What is your donut, in effect?

Well, I have three things that I can think of.

Okay.

The first one is my phone. But then thinking about it, I often just go for a walk without my phone anyway, so that can be left at home occasionally.

And then I was thinking, Pixo escapes book. I can't live leave the house without. But then it always escapes my mind to actually bring it with me. And the most important thing is my glasses.

Otherwise I wouldn't be able to see. I'd bump into things and just. Yeah, look, not walk down the road very well.

Yeah.

Okay. So some very practical things.

Yeah, yeah.

So in terms of what I'm reflecting on in this conversation, I think it's really important that we develop a lot more compassion in the workplace. I think you've made that point that just accept that difference is difference.

Let's look beyond that difference to say, look, what do these people bring to the workplace in terms of their strengths and what they can do for us, not necessarily what they can't do for us. Help them with their challenges, understand what their challenges are, and help them around those challenges.

But that should be the same whether you're neurodiverse or neurotypical, shouldn't it?

Yeah.

What's your takeaway, Daisy, for anybody listening to this? What's the one thing you want them to go and take away? And maybe one thing they do tomorrow.

One thing I want you to take away is I want everyone to love and accept themselves for who they are. In my book, Hector, who is Pixo's best friend, looks different from Pixo, but Pixo knows that you just got to accept people for who they are.

And tomorrow is to buy my book.

Absolutely. I love it. Get a bit of a promotion. No, absolutely, Yeah. I think that message, though, yeah. Of just being accepting because you're. You're right.

All the dogs in the book are quite different, aren't they? But they just get on. They're just. They're just mates.

Yeah.

They have fun together.

Yeah. And you just love and accept yourself. Just love and accept things is.

Yeah, brilliant. And if somebody wants to get hold of a copy of Pixar scapes, where do they get a copy from?

You can buy it from Aspect Design website or via me on the 20th of September at Malvern Book Cooperative.

So if we want. You want to buy online aspectdesign.com is that the.

Yes.

Yep.

And it's also available on Amazon, I believe, as well.

Oh, yes. You'll have to type in the name.

Yeah.

Or yes, come and see Daisy.

If you're in Worcestershire, Gloucestershire, or somewhere close to Come and see Daisy in September, have a chat with her, get a copy of the book, get it signed and have a chat about how Daisy sees life, how you see life. So, Daisy, thank you so much for putting time aside today and thank you for writing the book. I really appreciate the fact you've done that.

I think it's great. I want to read the next one when you've got it ready. If we can help you get this message out, we're more than happy to do so. So thank you very much.

And for any leaders listening, there's a good message here.

Just accept everybody for who they are, be compassionate, find out what they need from you and they will probably be one of the best employees you could ever have. So on that note, Daisy, thank you.